4 ms·

>I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own, thank you very much. And many, many other people haven't. Those people will unionize and won't care a

>I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own, thank you very much. And many, many other people haven't. Those people will unionize and won't care a lick to see you go.

stale2002 10y ago
Awesome. They can do that, and I will work for the multitude of companies and startups out there that will not unionize. You can't unionize every startup in the world, and non unionized employees will be able to demand a premium. Other people are free to burden themselves with union rules, and I will be free to accept the higher salary that I can command because my competition is hindered. It is a competitive advantage to not be burdened by union rules.
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  You seem to be operating from a world where there unionization in tech even exists, and making assumptions that tech unions behave exactly the same as they have in different industries.
- oddlyaromatic 10y ago
  It's people like this commenter who need to be won over if a union would have any chance in tech. But I don't know how to do it. At my first ever job everybody at the company was an automatic member of a union (it was a grocery store in my home town). I knew that when I took a paid break, or a vacation, or got time and a half for night work, I was benefiting from industrial action taken by those who went before me. I remember being a kid and seeing my aunt and her coworkers picketing over a pay dispute. I made better money because it was not just me negotiating on my own, other people went without pay to force the company to do better. It was and remains a successful chain. Currently I support people with disabilities who work in similar jobs and are protected by the "burden" of union rules. I wonder if tech contains too many people who think they are too smart to get screwed to gain critical mass for a union. Maybe everybody thinks they have a competitive advantage... What's weird is that this is also how the employers like it. So is everybody winning, or does one side just think they are? I have never before heard the complaint that unions reduce wages. Maybe I'm missing something because employers should be all for that!
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    There's a difference between what's best for the group and what's best for individual members of the group. This conflict comes up over and over again, as it arises from straightforward principles from game theory. If everyone bargains collectively, overall compensation goes up as companies have much worse alternatives to negotiated agreement. However, these companies are generally very willing to bribe people into breaking solidarity, and so it's often personally lucrative to be the scab crossing picket lines.
    - oddlyaromatic 10y ago
      I don't know. Picket lines are a really specific situation. I don't think companies are motivated in normal times to pay more to non-union workers. What exactly would they be paying for? You are right about the general tension between group and individual rewards for choices. It goes beyond unions as you mention. I do think some unions do OK in this regard- actors and musicians are not held back on individual income but still benefit from industry standards negotiated by unions.
      - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
        >It goes beyond unions as you mention. Yeah, and it gets really interesting when you look at examples from evolutionary biology, too. There's a pretty common population dynamic that goes on between "punish non-cooperation with some version of tit-for-tat" and "always cooperate because others will punish defectors" and "exploit others because there's enough non-cooperators for this to work as a strategy". In normal times, companies don't pay more to non-union workers - but the company pays the same, and non-union workers get the benefits that union workers fought for, and the non-union folks don't have to pay union dues and the like. There's a very real reason why unions work to make themselves non-optional, and why businesses favor laws that enshrine a right to not pay union dues.
  - stale2002 10y ago
    Winning me over is easy. Give me a better deal. If the union job pays 50% more then I will take it. I'd have to be stupid not to. But don't expect my loyalty to the union. As soon as it become a better deal to do something else, I am going to do that thing. I don't care about solidarity, or "crossing the picket line" or whatever. I will take the best deal that is offered to me.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >You can't unionize every startup in the world, and non unionized employees will be able to demand a premium. Empirically, this is completely untrue. Union workers have higher compensation than nonunion workers overall. >It is a competitive advantage to not be burdened by union rules. Doesn't look like that to me. Unions don't just have advantages in terms of salaries; they have the advantage of helping to grease the wheels between companies, between jobs for the unemployed, and between skillsets. Unions are an important source of job-training for an ever-changing field like tech. Why pay for a web-programming bootcamp if your union dues entitle you to one?

>I have done just fine negotiating my salary on my own, thank you very much. And many, many other people haven't. Those people will unionize and won't care a lick to see you go.

stale2002 10y ago

Awesome. They can do that, and I will work for the multitude of companies and startups out there that will not unionize. You can't unionize every startup in the world, and non unionized employees will be able to demand a premium. Other people are free to burden themselves with union rules, and I will be free to accept the higher salary that I can command because my competition is hindered. It is a competitive advantage to not be burdened by union rules.

Apocryphon 10y ago
You seem to be operating from a world where there unionization in tech even exists, and making assumptions that tech unions behave exactly the same as they have in different industries.
oddlyaromatic 10y ago
It's people like this commenter who need to be won over if a union would have any chance in tech. But I don't know how to do it. At my first ever job everybody at the company was an automatic member of a union (it was a grocery store in my home town). I knew that when I took a paid break, or a vacation, or got time and a half for night work, I was benefiting from industrial action taken by those who went before me. I remember being a kid and seeing my aunt and her coworkers picketing over a pay dispute. I made better money because it was not just me negotiating on my own, other people went without pay to force the company to do better. It was and remains a successful chain. Currently I support people with disabilities who work in similar jobs and are protected by the "burden" of union rules. I wonder if tech contains too many people who think they are too smart to get screwed to gain critical mass for a union. Maybe everybody thinks they have a competitive advantage... What's weird is that this is also how the employers like it. So is everybody winning, or does one side just think they are? I have never before heard the complaint that unions reduce wages. Maybe I'm missing something because employers should be all for that!
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  There's a difference between what's best for the group and what's best for individual members of the group. This conflict comes up over and over again, as it arises from straightforward principles from game theory. If everyone bargains collectively, overall compensation goes up as companies have much worse alternatives to negotiated agreement. However, these companies are generally very willing to bribe people into breaking solidarity, and so it's often personally lucrative to be the scab crossing picket lines.
  - oddlyaromatic 10y ago
    I don't know. Picket lines are a really specific situation. I don't think companies are motivated in normal times to pay more to non-union workers. What exactly would they be paying for? You are right about the general tension between group and individual rewards for choices. It goes beyond unions as you mention. I do think some unions do OK in this regard- actors and musicians are not held back on individual income but still benefit from industry standards negotiated by unions.
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      >It goes beyond unions as you mention. Yeah, and it gets really interesting when you look at examples from evolutionary biology, too. There's a pretty common population dynamic that goes on between "punish non-cooperation with some version of tit-for-tat" and "always cooperate because others will punish defectors" and "exploit others because there's enough non-cooperators for this to work as a strategy". In normal times, companies don't pay more to non-union workers - but the company pays the same, and non-union workers get the benefits that union workers fought for, and the non-union folks don't have to pay union dues and the like. There's a very real reason why unions work to make themselves non-optional, and why businesses favor laws that enshrine a right to not pay union dues.
- stale2002 10y ago
  Winning me over is easy. Give me a better deal. If the union job pays 50% more then I will take it. I'd have to be stupid not to. But don't expect my loyalty to the union. As soon as it become a better deal to do something else, I am going to do that thing. I don't care about solidarity, or "crossing the picket line" or whatever. I will take the best deal that is offered to me.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>You can't unionize every startup in the world, and non unionized employees will be able to demand a premium. Empirically, this is completely untrue. Union workers have higher compensation than nonunion workers overall. >It is a competitive advantage to not be burdened by union rules. Doesn't look like that to me. Unions don't just have advantages in terms of salaries; they have the advantage of helping to grease the wheels between companies, between jobs for the unemployed, and between skillsets. Unions are an important source of job-training for an ever-changing field like tech. Why pay for a web-programming bootcamp if your union dues entitle you to one?