5 ms·

> If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. This sounds like it's going to hav

by xienze 10y ago

> If it's going to do anything but be window dressing then it needs to have the teeth of union - so just call it what it is. This sounds like it's going to have exactly zero to do with what a labor union would normally be concerned with -- pay, working conditions, etc. Instead, I have a strong suspicion this is going to be some sort of enumeration of the progressive ideals that all tech workers "should" be concerned with, as dictated by a group of Bay Area tech workers. Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc.

badloginagain 10y ago
I don't see what that would really accomplish, though. All companies already publicly advertise the 'moral' beliefs you mentioned, yet continue hiring white male whiteboard challenge mavericks.
- xienze 10y ago
  No, not all companies. Many still follow the age-old wisdom of staying out of the social commentary business. I think the goal of this endeavor is to change that by convincing the tech workers to create a culture of doing so where it didn't exist before.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    The only age-old wisdom I remember from my great-grandfather is "never trust the British, and kill every French on sight". Regarding this issue, I'll stop demanding that corporations act morally above and beyond what the law requires when they seize to influence those laws.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > yet continue hiring white male whiteboard challenge mavericks. Is that even true? Are you counting Asians and light-complexioned immigrants the same as American white people in this context?
- wtvanhest 10y ago
  This feels like a very political move that has little to nothing to do with tech. If you build a union or trade organization which has influence over the biggest CEOs in the world, you have consolidated a lot of power. I'm left scratching my head after reading this, and I feel like YC may have lost its way.
- webwright 10y ago
  Here's the kind of thing it could accomplish: https://www.recode.net/2017/2/2/14490950/travis-kalanick-uber-ceo-leaves-donald-trump-advisory-council https://www.recode.net/2017/2/2/14490950/travis-kalanick-ube... If tech workers express collective displeasure about a company, it meaningfully hurts that company's ability to recruit/retain tech workers.
lazyasciiart 10y ago
> Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc. offering parental leave is an excellent example of the kind of thing a union would negotiate, and is also pretty well related to how attractive a company is to women (who are more likely to have childcare responsibilities). Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate, and are definitely going to help increase minority and LGBT representation. Why do you see 'working conditions' as unrelated to these topics?
- xienze 10y ago
  > Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate Except they're not, that's what our existing laws are for. > Why do you see 'working conditions' as unrelated to these topics? Because in my reading of this it doesn't sound like they're going after things like vacation time, pay, IP rights, you know, day-to-day stuff that a union would really be concerned with. Instead it sounds like they want to define a shared set of principles that tech workers should believe in and then through sheer numbers said workers would convince their employers to be more socially conscious. So again, I'd be shocked if the results of this were anything other than "A real tech worker believes in the right to an abortion, a real tech worker believes in gay marriage", etc. instead of, say, "a real tech worker believes in a minimum of four weeks paid leave" and similar statements. tl;dr it's gonna be a bunch of touchy-freely Bay Area stuff.
  - chimeracoder 10y ago
    > > Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate > Except they're not, that's what our existing laws are for. Ironically, unions are allowed to terminate memberships for reasons that would be illegal to use as grounds for firing someone[0]. In a closed shop, terminating a membership is tantamount to firing someone, so that literally means employees covered by a closed-shop union contract have less recourse if the union decides to fire them than they would if they never had a union contract to begin with. Also, a democratically-elected body will (in theory) represent the majority of people whom it governs. If a majority of people want to target a minority religion or race or ethnicity, a democratically-elected body representing them will do just that. Unions actually have a long history of lobbying for unbelievably racist laws throughout the 20th century in order to protect their majority-white members[1]. I know this is unpopular to say here, but as someone belonging to a group that was explicitly targeted by these unions as a scapegoat, and who had their US citizenships revoked and property seized due to successful, xenophobic lobbying by those unions, I'm really sick of the pervasive assumption that unions will inherently protect minorities, or even minority members. [0] This includes retaliatory termination [1] The AFL is the most well-known of these, but they weren't the only ones.
ocschwar 10y ago
Well, if a professional organization of tech workers actually managed to hold some sway in DC, it would be an improvement over the status quo at the moment.

by xienze 10y ago

badloginagain 10y ago

I don't see what that would really accomplish, though. All companies already publicly advertise the 'moral' beliefs you mentioned, yet continue hiring white male whiteboard challenge mavericks.

xienze 10y ago
No, not all companies. Many still follow the age-old wisdom of staying out of the social commentary business. I think the goal of this endeavor is to change that by convincing the tech workers to create a culture of doing so where it didn't exist before.
- matt4077 10y ago
  The only age-old wisdom I remember from my great-grandfather is "never trust the British, and kill every French on sight". Regarding this issue, I'll stop demanding that corporations act morally above and beyond what the law requires when they seize to influence those laws.
humanrebar 10y ago
> yet continue hiring white male whiteboard challenge mavericks. Is that even true? Are you counting Asians and light-complexioned immigrants the same as American white people in this context?
wtvanhest 10y ago
This feels like a very political move that has little to nothing to do with tech. If you build a union or trade organization which has influence over the biggest CEOs in the world, you have consolidated a lot of power. I'm left scratching my head after reading this, and I feel like YC may have lost its way.
webwright 10y ago
Here's the kind of thing it could accomplish: https://www.recode.net/2017/2/2/14490950/travis-kalanick-uber-ceo-leaves-donald-trump-advisory-council https://www.recode.net/2017/2/2/14490950/travis-kalanick-ube... If tech workers express collective displeasure about a company, it meaningfully hurts that company's ability to recruit/retain tech workers.

lazyasciiart 10y ago

> Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc. offering parental leave is an excellent example of the kind of thing a union would negotiate, and is also pretty well related to how attractive a company is to women (who are more likely to have childcare responsibilities). Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate, and are definitely going to help increase minority and LGBT representation. Why do you see 'working conditions' as unrelated to these topics?

xienze 10y ago
> Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate Except they're not, that's what our existing laws are for. > Why do you see 'working conditions' as unrelated to these topics? Because in my reading of this it doesn't sound like they're going after things like vacation time, pay, IP rights, you know, day-to-day stuff that a union would really be concerned with. Instead it sounds like they want to define a shared set of principles that tech workers should believe in and then through sheer numbers said workers would convince their employers to be more socially conscious. So again, I'd be shocked if the results of this were anything other than "A real tech worker believes in the right to an abortion, a real tech worker believes in gay marriage", etc. instead of, say, "a real tech worker believes in a minimum of four weeks paid leave" and similar statements. tl;dr it's gonna be a bunch of touchy-freely Bay Area stuff.
- chimeracoder 10y ago
  > > Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would negotiate > Except they're not, that's what our existing laws are for. Ironically, unions are allowed to terminate memberships for reasons that would be illegal to use as grounds for firing someone[0]. In a closed shop, terminating a membership is tantamount to firing someone, so that literally means employees covered by a closed-shop union contract have less recourse if the union decides to fire them than they would if they never had a union contract to begin with. Also, a democratically-elected body will (in theory) represent the majority of people whom it governs. If a majority of people want to target a minority religion or race or ethnicity, a democratically-elected body representing them will do just that. Unions actually have a long history of lobbying for unbelievably racist laws throughout the 20th century in order to protect their majority-white members[1]. I know this is unpopular to say here, but as someone belonging to a group that was explicitly targeted by these unions as a scapegoat, and who had their US citizenships revoked and property seized due to successful, xenophobic lobbying by those unions, I'm really sick of the pervasive assumption that unions will inherently protect minorities, or even minority members. [0] This includes retaliatory termination [1] The AFL is the most well-known of these, but they weren't the only ones.

ocschwar 10y ago

Well, if a professional organization of tech workers actually managed to hold some sway in DC, it would be an improvement over the status quo at the moment.