5 ms·

Trolls were always winning the internet. From "RTFM" attitudes to anonymous user accounts. It's a troll playground. Don't get me wrong the internet was built to

Trolls were always winning the internet. From "RTFM" attitudes to anonymous user accounts. It's a troll playground. Don't get me wrong the internet was built to be/can be an incredible tool, but let's not misconstrue this is a new trend. EDIT: I find the issue with the candor on the internet is lack of context 90% of the time.

M_Grey 10y ago
Trolls, in a broad sense, win life in the same way. "This is why we can't have nice things," is a practically universal sentiment, and much of our human endeavor is geared to managing the activities of its edge cases. Technology only empowers people, it doesn't make them better people... so this is the result. The response will be a combination of social quarantine, and an upgraded intellectual immune system on the part of netizens. I think Trump's election and the damage his presidency is likely to inflict will be a bit of a turning point in the collective attitude to trolls in general.
thinkmilitant 10y ago
I agree. It seems to me that the biggest difference is the extent to which the average internet user gets his content from other internet users (reddit, facebook, twitter, etc) instead of designated content creators with reputations to uphold.
- clock_tower 10y ago
  Isn't this the applied form of the Global Village nonsense from back in the '90s? I'm sure I've seen positively-spun descriptions of the process you describe.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  >It seems to me that the biggest difference is the extent to which the average internet user gets his content from other internet users (reddit, facebook, twitter, etc) instead of designated content creators with reputations to uphold. This is as old as humanity, and has always been the case for the majority. See the chapter "Social Proof" in the book "Influence": https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490993840&sr=8-1&keywords=Influence https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Rober...
the_af 10y ago
> From "RTFM" attitudes While agree some internet users are a bit too gung-ho with RTFM, I think it's unfair to lump them with trolls. While veterans can be harsh and unfriendly, the RTFM response is often warranted (though, again, it could be phrased more nicely -- and the default assumption should be that the person seeking help is well-intentioned). Otherwise, many online communities would be completely overrun by people demanding help with minimum effort on their part. "RTFM" is not trollish behavior, because trolls have a different goal: to disrupt communities, start flamewars and generally annoy the hell out of people. It's not merely being "unfriendly"; in fact some trolls fake cluelesness instead of anger.
- michaelchisari 10y ago
  I disagree. I think that hand-holding beginners can be one of the best services a community can provide, and it can go a long way to growing the community. That doesn't mean everybody needs to be teacher/mentor/educator. But the people who don't want to be can also just keep out of the conversation, instead of rudely pointing to some 300 page manual and telling someone with passion and interest to screw off.
  - the_af 10y ago
    Hmm, RTFM is not aimed at beginners (and note: I do agree with the sibling comment that the aggressiveness of the response leaves a bad taste. I do agree pointing to a 300 page manual, without any guidance at all, is unhelpful). RTFM is aimed at help vampires (recommended reading: http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm). Help vampires do not grow a community; they destroy it. These are people you do not want in your community anyway. Unlike actual beginners, who learn and then proceed to become valuable contributors (unless of course they are treated harshly by veterans, in which case they simply leave), help vampires are never helpful. They ask the same question again and again, don't pay attention to any cues, don't read anything, and seldom provide context or follow-ups to their problem. And when you've wasted time with one (more often than not fruitlessly), the next one comes in. And they are legion. The end result, like the first article I mentioned claims, is that your community of well-intentioned volunteers is destroyed. So a polite RTFM is often the best response: if the person was an actual beginner, they'll read TFM -- and follow-up questions are often welcome, since they show the asker has actually made an effort. If not, they'll leave and you haven't wasted any valuable time. In fact, help vampires are often indistinguishable from trolls, in that they have the same community-disrupting effect. RTFM has always been part of the hacker culture (also see: How To Ask Questions The Smart Way, http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html). It has nothing to do with trolls.
ravenstine 10y ago
Let's not forget that that '03 to '06 era of "Just F*ing Google It".

M_Grey 10y ago

Trolls, in a broad sense, win life in the same way. "This is why we can't have nice things," is a practically universal sentiment, and much of our human endeavor is geared to managing the activities of its edge cases. Technology only empowers people, it doesn't make them better people... so this is the result. The response will be a combination of social quarantine, and an upgraded intellectual immune system on the part of netizens. I think Trump's election and the damage his presidency is likely to inflict will be a bit of a turning point in the collective attitude to trolls in general.

thinkmilitant 10y ago

I agree. It seems to me that the biggest difference is the extent to which the average internet user gets his content from other internet users (reddit, facebook, twitter, etc) instead of designated content creators with reputations to uphold.

clock_tower 10y ago
Isn't this the applied form of the Global Village nonsense from back in the '90s? I'm sure I've seen positively-spun descriptions of the process you describe.
BeetleB 10y ago
>It seems to me that the biggest difference is the extent to which the average internet user gets his content from other internet users (reddit, facebook, twitter, etc) instead of designated content creators with reputations to uphold. This is as old as humanity, and has always been the case for the majority. See the chapter "Social Proof" in the book "Influence": https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490993840&sr=8-1&keywords=Influence https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Rober...

the_af 10y ago

> From "RTFM" attitudes While agree some internet users are a bit too gung-ho with RTFM, I think it's unfair to lump them with trolls. While veterans can be harsh and unfriendly, the RTFM response is often warranted (though, again, it could be phrased more nicely -- and the default assumption should be that the person seeking help is well-intentioned). Otherwise, many online communities would be completely overrun by people demanding help with minimum effort on their part. "RTFM" is not trollish behavior, because trolls have a different goal: to disrupt communities, start flamewars and generally annoy the hell out of people. It's not merely being "unfriendly"; in fact some trolls fake cluelesness instead of anger.

michaelchisari 10y ago
I disagree. I think that hand-holding beginners can be one of the best services a community can provide, and it can go a long way to growing the community. That doesn't mean everybody needs to be teacher/mentor/educator. But the people who don't want to be can also just keep out of the conversation, instead of rudely pointing to some 300 page manual and telling someone with passion and interest to screw off.
- the_af 10y ago
  Hmm, RTFM is not aimed at beginners (and note: I do agree with the sibling comment that the aggressiveness of the response leaves a bad taste. I do agree pointing to a 300 page manual, without any guidance at all, is unhelpful). RTFM is aimed at help vampires (recommended reading: http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm). Help vampires do not grow a community; they destroy it. These are people you do not want in your community anyway. Unlike actual beginners, who learn and then proceed to become valuable contributors (unless of course they are treated harshly by veterans, in which case they simply leave), help vampires are never helpful. They ask the same question again and again, don't pay attention to any cues, don't read anything, and seldom provide context or follow-ups to their problem. And when you've wasted time with one (more often than not fruitlessly), the next one comes in. And they are legion. The end result, like the first article I mentioned claims, is that your community of well-intentioned volunteers is destroyed. So a polite RTFM is often the best response: if the person was an actual beginner, they'll read TFM -- and follow-up questions are often welcome, since they show the asker has actually made an effort. If not, they'll leave and you haven't wasted any valuable time. In fact, help vampires are often indistinguishable from trolls, in that they have the same community-disrupting effect. RTFM has always been part of the hacker culture (also see: How To Ask Questions The Smart Way, http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html). It has nothing to do with trolls.

ravenstine 10y ago

Let's not forget that that '03 to '06 era of "Just F*ing Google It".