5 ms·

I look at things like "how long does it take to enter 100 values into a spreadsheet". Back in DOS days, it was as fast as you could type. With Google Sheets, th

I look at things like "how long does it take to enter 100 values into a spreadsheet". Back in DOS days, it was as fast as you could type. With Google Sheets, there is some lag sometimes. Many orders of magnitude more computing power, but how have we improved the actual experience and productivity?

SilasX 10y ago
Yes! It infuriates me how entering text into a field in a browser can now have lag and hiccups.
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
But that's network lag, not computation inefficiency. Compare either a spreadsheet program running on a mainframe back around 1990 to Google Sheets, or else compare a DOS spreadsheet to a spreadsheet running locally on Windows today.
- petters 10y ago
  Would still be an interesting comparison, with some Electron apps using 16% CPU to blink the cursor.
- SilasX 10y ago
  There are many causes of lag. The parent was referring to the case of "I'm typing a bunch of data into a bunch of cells". Network connectivity should not (necessarily) cause lag in that in case: it should let the client side update without interruption, and then pass data over to the server as it is able. If network syncing is interfering with user text input, something is wrong with that design. Edit: The historical analogy would be like if you were entering data (offline) into your Lotus cells, but your computer would keep freezing up so the modem could reconnect. Somehow they kept those decoupled back then!
- sp332 10y ago
  Is that true? Google Sheets should work even without an internet connection. I didn't think the syncing would cause a noticeable slowdown.
- sogen 10y ago
  You should see the horrible lag in latest Excel on OS X
- coldtea 10y ago
  >But that's network lag, not computation inefficiency. It's also huge computation inefficiency. Because suddenly to enter the text we involve network calls (hence the network lag), drawing in the context of a browser, the DOM, a JS engine, and other crap.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  But why does the network need to be involved at all?
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I get multi-minute lag on interactions and text input all the fucking time on Android with either Firefox or Chrome. I can generally avoid this by dropping to a dedicated editor app (by preference, now that I've got Termux, Termux-API, and clipboard access: vim from a bash shell). But one thing I can assure you this isn't is network lag.
gmarz 10y ago
I don't know, I would argue that being able to share a document, work on it concurrently with other users, and access it across multiple devices while seeing changes in real time, with really no effort, counts as a pretty significant experience/productivity improvement.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Oddly enough, I was able to do that whilst using an on-campus Unix account, for pretty much the same reasons ("cloud" computing -- shared access to a central compute facility by the users I was interacting with), in the 1980s, at Uni.
  - fjdlwlv 10y ago
    Did that work on your cellphone and for simultaneous edit sessions?
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      What it worked on was numerous terminals accessible at many locations on campus. Which were far more viable for creative generative work than a 3-5" smartphone with a soft keyboard, or even a 9" tablet and Bluetooth keyboard (my primary driver of late). No, not all of today's features were available, but you're dragging goalposts. The basic concepts existed. I used them. They worked. Often better than equivalents today, though not always.
arjie 10y ago
So why aren't you using that thing in Dosbox?
woliveirajr 10y ago
Hum.... a PC-XT could consume 130 watts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer_XT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer_XT) without considering a CRT monitor (100 watts, http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lcd-backlight-led-cfl,2683-5.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lcd-backlight-led-cfl,26...). With much less power you can run a notebook today. And I don't how much energy it takes to host one Google Sheets in use, but it seems that a search doesn't consumes that much (http://techland.time.com/2011/09/09/6-things-youd-never-guess-about-googles-energy-use/ http://techland.time.com/2011/09/09/6-things-youd-never-gues...). Even the typical user consumes just a bit every month (http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google-use/ http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google...)

SilasX 10y ago

Yes! It infuriates me how entering text into a field in a browser can now have lag and hiccups.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

But that's network lag, not computation inefficiency. Compare either a spreadsheet program running on a mainframe back around 1990 to Google Sheets, or else compare a DOS spreadsheet to a spreadsheet running locally on Windows today.

petters 10y ago
Would still be an interesting comparison, with some Electron apps using 16% CPU to blink the cursor.
SilasX 10y ago
There are many causes of lag. The parent was referring to the case of "I'm typing a bunch of data into a bunch of cells". Network connectivity should not (necessarily) cause lag in that in case: it should let the client side update without interruption, and then pass data over to the server as it is able. If network syncing is interfering with user text input, something is wrong with that design. Edit: The historical analogy would be like if you were entering data (offline) into your Lotus cells, but your computer would keep freezing up so the modem could reconnect. Somehow they kept those decoupled back then!
sp332 10y ago
Is that true? Google Sheets should work even without an internet connection. I didn't think the syncing would cause a noticeable slowdown.
sogen 10y ago
You should see the horrible lag in latest Excel on OS X
coldtea 10y ago
>But that's network lag, not computation inefficiency. It's also huge computation inefficiency. Because suddenly to enter the text we involve network calls (hence the network lag), drawing in the context of a browser, the DOM, a JS engine, and other crap.
adrianratnapala 10y ago
But why does the network need to be involved at all?
dredmorbius 10y ago
I get multi-minute lag on interactions and text input all the fucking time on Android with either Firefox or Chrome. I can generally avoid this by dropping to a dedicated editor app (by preference, now that I've got Termux, Termux-API, and clipboard access: vim from a bash shell). But one thing I can assure you this isn't is network lag.

gmarz 10y ago

I don't know, I would argue that being able to share a document, work on it concurrently with other users, and access it across multiple devices while seeing changes in real time, with really no effort, counts as a pretty significant experience/productivity improvement.

dredmorbius 10y ago
Oddly enough, I was able to do that whilst using an on-campus Unix account, for pretty much the same reasons ("cloud" computing -- shared access to a central compute facility by the users I was interacting with), in the 1980s, at Uni.
- fjdlwlv 10y ago
  Did that work on your cellphone and for simultaneous edit sessions?
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    What it worked on was numerous terminals accessible at many locations on campus. Which were far more viable for creative generative work than a 3-5" smartphone with a soft keyboard, or even a 9" tablet and Bluetooth keyboard (my primary driver of late). No, not all of today's features were available, but you're dragging goalposts. The basic concepts existed. I used them. They worked. Often better than equivalents today, though not always.

arjie 10y ago

So why aren't you using that thing in Dosbox?

woliveirajr 10y ago

Hum.... a PC-XT could consume 130 watts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer_XT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer_XT) without considering a CRT monitor (100 watts, http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lcd-backlight-led-cfl,2683-5.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lcd-backlight-led-cfl,26...). With much less power you can run a notebook today. And I don't how much energy it takes to host one Google Sheets in use, but it seems that a search doesn't consumes that much (http://techland.time.com/2011/09/09/6-things-youd-never-guess-about-googles-energy-use/ http://techland.time.com/2011/09/09/6-things-youd-never-gues...). Even the typical user consumes just a bit every month (http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google-use/ http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google...)