5 ms·

Between the Google play store, Android's general insecurity, and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware, what alternatives exist? And please don't say iOS.

by Taek 10y ago

Between the Google play store, Android's general insecurity, and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware, what alternatives exist? And please don't say iOS. It's closed source, which means we really don't know what's going on under the hood. We may trust it today, but one secret court order + an overnight update is all we need to lose everything with iOS. Apple execs may not even be made aware of such an update if the order was delivered to the engineers directly. What are my options such that I'll actually feel comfortable when I sleep at night? My phone knows everything. All my emails (which can typically be used to get into everything else), all my contacts, all my calendar events, where I go every day, and I'm even paranoid that it records all of my conversations. This isn't schizophrenia, we know that devices record people's conversations without their knowledge. A phone doing the same is just one step away. So what can I do? How can I get some sanity and security around my mobile life? Would be a great step to have a phone that: + Fully open source. (Sorry Android you don't count) + Hardware switch for mic + Hardware switch for location services Or at least a phone that is beginning to move in that direction? Should I just stop using my phone?

themihai 10y ago
There is Ubuntu Phone. There were also several devices. Here is the source for one of them: https://github.com/bq/aquaris-E4.5 https://github.com/bq/aquaris-E4.5
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Datenstrom 10y ago
Been watching CopperheadOS for a while, the best option as far as I know. I will be getting my next phone directly from them to support development. https://copperhead.co/android/ https://copperhead.co/android/
- pgrote 10y ago
  I am ignorant of how this connects to a carrier. Will it work on Verizon's network? Can Verizon install something once it is connected?
  - Datenstrom 10y ago
    It will work, right now it only supports a few phones (Nexus 9 WiFi, Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P) with the Pixel and Pixel XL on the way. I don't have a supported phone currently so I haven't been able to test it out but any phone that is capable of connecting to Verizon's network hardware wise should be able to connect using any OS that implements the necessary protocols. The Pixel and Pixel XL use nano SIM cards to connect to a carrier. If CopperheadOS is installed the only attack vector Verizon could use is the SIM Card, but CopperheadOS implements a lot of security features that could help mitigate the risk: * Full verified boot, covering all firmware and OS partitions. * Baseline app isolation via unique uid/gid pairs for each app. * App permission model including the ability to revoke permissions and supply fake data. Carriers can not install software on phones connected to the network. Assuming they installed a Carrier configuration application or anything else using the SIM Card you could revoke its permissions or supply fake data, or even create firewall rules to disallow the traffic manually. More security features: https://copperhead.co/android/docs/technical_overview https://copperhead.co/android/docs/technical_overview
    - mahyarm 10y ago
      That document doesnt have the word baseband on it. I'm guessing they dont do anything about it?
      - Datenstrom 10y ago
        I am not sure but I don't think so, I am sure they would be bragging about it if they did. There may be some attempt to lessen the risks but I haven't taken a deep look into what they have done in hardening the OS. I don't think we will ever solve that problem without more support for projects like CopperheadOS and ReplicantOS. They are struggling to even maintain and improve just a couple devices.
dublinben 10y ago
Purism are working on a phone that should meet most of these requirements. Honestly, with such strict expectations, no smartphone will ever satisfy your needs.
scarface74 10y ago
"And please don't say iOS. It's closed source, which means we really don't know what's going on under the hood. We may trust it today, but one secret court order + an overnight update is all we need to lose everything with iOS. Apple execs may not even be made aware of such an update if the order was delivered to the engineers directly." So Android is "open source" even though most of what makes Android Android to most users -- Google Play Services and all of the Google apps and third party OEM apps are closed. But iOS is closed source even though parts of it are also open source?
- dingaling 10y ago
  > But iOS is closed source even though parts of it are also open source? Android will run ( and performs all the expected smartphone functions ) using only open-source. iOS won't boot using only open-source. I'm not a fan of Android in general but reluctantly continue using it with that distinction as consolation.
  - scarface74 10y ago
    Can you use an App Store? Are the baseband drivers open source, the graphic drivers? Are any of the drivers open source?
- Taek 10y ago
  I asked people not to suggest iOS because I thought it likely that they would. I did not think it likely that people would suggest Android is acceptably secure, and indeed they did not. iOS has the high ground between the two, but neither are anywhere close to acceptable.
mschuster91 10y ago
> Would be a great step to have a phone that: Fully open source. Two problems remaining why this won't happen: a) Baseband (which in some cases has direct access to the microphone, or worse, DMA link to the CPU, or even worse, integrated into the SoC) firmware b) Linux kernel. So many manufacturers either blatantly ignore the GPL by not releasing kernel source code, and nearly all of them, instead of cooperating with upstream, fork the kernels and add literal crap on their trees. The horrors I have seen, especially in leaked Mediatek source trees... unimaginable. I can certainly understand why Mediatek does not want to release kernel sources. Also this is the biggest threat to the Android ecosystem. Either some kernel contributor sues Mediatek and other shoddy OEM/ODMs for enough money that they go down (unlikely), or the kernel forks by manufacturers will go so hard out of sync that new userlands of Android will simply not work with fossilized kernels. Same as in the embedded-Linux world... I believe a lot of manufacturers operate by "lets either not release code at all or code so shoddy no one else wants to release anything based on it", and thus holding privacy, security and competition hostage. Especially as competition is stuff like cyanogenmod which removes all the nasty tracking/adware whose data sales the OEMs intend to monetize...
rsync 10y ago
"Between the Google play store, Android's general insecurity, and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware, what alternatives exist?" There are no alternatives until we have an open baseband. Every objection you state in your comment about android (and iOS) is dwarfed by the objections you would have if you truly understood the two other general purpose computers inside your phone that you have no control over - namely, your baseband processor and your SIM card. Your carrier owns you. Your carrier owns you more deeply than any spyware author ever dreamed of owning you. Your carrier can upload and run arbitrary java applets onto your SIM card without you ever knowing. Your carrier, depending on which SOC you have and how it is implemented, can access your CPU and memory directly. As in, read the passphrase of your cutesy encrypted chat app as you key it in. We cannot begin to speak of a secure mobile platform or any kind of open source mobile platform until we have an open baseband and control our own SIM cards. We are very, very far away from this. In the meantime, you have two choices: 1. treat your mobile device as fully compromised and behave accordingly. This is what I do. 2. Buy a non-cellular mobile device (for instance, the old "samsung galaxy player" devices that have no mobile chipset or SIM card) and insert a cellular modem into the USB port and segregate that function there, and use VOIP software. This actually sounds sort-of workable except for one interesting problem - in addition to handling cellular communications, the baseband also handles voice quality like noise cancellation and so on that also needs to be done in real-time and not interrupted by userland events ... and so your actual voice quality will drop as a result of using VOIP on a handset.
- natdempk 10y ago
  How does iOS and the iPhone handle this SIM card/baseband processor issue? Is there an article that details the exact threat model and defenses in place?
  - londons_explore 10y ago
    iOS uses Qualcomm and Intel chipsets for basebands. For Qualcomm at least, they share a lot of code with Android, and nearly all the code is fully closed source, even to Apple engineers building the phone above. Note that code does everything from camera autofocus to doing NAT for tethering, to audio decoding while the CPU is sleeping, to setting up the GPU, to handling supercomplex GSM protocols, to determining USB charging current and serial debug interfaces. It is probably more complex than the whole of the rest of the OS. Looking at the quality of open source code from Qualcomm, I have nearly zero confidence in the security of that baseband. I'm confident you could find an "accidentally" open debug interface within a few days of looking.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
js2 10y ago
"There are no secure smartphones" 374 points, 441 days ago, 118 comments. Note the discussion about baseband. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643
- forgotmysn 10y ago
  Is the blackphone not secure? I ask this out of genuine ignorance https://www.silentcircle.com/products-and-solutions/devices/ https://www.silentcircle.com/products-and-solutions/devices/
  - devopsproject 10y ago
    There are no secure smartphones. Period.
austenallred 10y ago
If you use wireless data it doesn't matter; the carriers sell everything you do anyway
cr0sh 10y ago
You could build your own. I'm sure you've seen the Arduino DIY phone? Take something like that - but use a RasPi Zero W - add on a better touchscreen (plenty of options there). The Arduino version used a 3G module - but if you are willing to fork out the money, you can find 4G modules out there (they aren't cheap, though). Then all you have to do as the code magic, a 3d printed case, etc... You'll still need a cell service provider, of course - no real way to get around that, unless you wanted to set up some kind of wifi auto-hacking system to scrounge off of insecure (and other free) wifi nodes (coverage would be spotty, of course).
bogomipz 10y ago
>"and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware," Have there been other carriers pushing such spyware out to Android phones in in addition to Verizon?

by Taek 10y ago

themihai 10y ago

There is Ubuntu Phone. There were also several devices. Here is the source for one of them: https://github.com/bq/aquaris-E4.5 https://github.com/bq/aquaris-E4.5

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Datenstrom 10y ago

Been watching CopperheadOS for a while, the best option as far as I know. I will be getting my next phone directly from them to support development. https://copperhead.co/android/ https://copperhead.co/android/

pgrote 10y ago
I am ignorant of how this connects to a carrier. Will it work on Verizon's network? Can Verizon install something once it is connected?
- Datenstrom 10y ago
  It will work, right now it only supports a few phones (Nexus 9 WiFi, Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P) with the Pixel and Pixel XL on the way. I don't have a supported phone currently so I haven't been able to test it out but any phone that is capable of connecting to Verizon's network hardware wise should be able to connect using any OS that implements the necessary protocols. The Pixel and Pixel XL use nano SIM cards to connect to a carrier. If CopperheadOS is installed the only attack vector Verizon could use is the SIM Card, but CopperheadOS implements a lot of security features that could help mitigate the risk: * Full verified boot, covering all firmware and OS partitions. * Baseline app isolation via unique uid/gid pairs for each app. * App permission model including the ability to revoke permissions and supply fake data. Carriers can not install software on phones connected to the network. Assuming they installed a Carrier configuration application or anything else using the SIM Card you could revoke its permissions or supply fake data, or even create firewall rules to disallow the traffic manually. More security features: https://copperhead.co/android/docs/technical_overview https://copperhead.co/android/docs/technical_overview
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    That document doesnt have the word baseband on it. I'm guessing they dont do anything about it?
    - Datenstrom 10y ago
      I am not sure but I don't think so, I am sure they would be bragging about it if they did. There may be some attempt to lessen the risks but I haven't taken a deep look into what they have done in hardening the OS. I don't think we will ever solve that problem without more support for projects like CopperheadOS and ReplicantOS. They are struggling to even maintain and improve just a couple devices.

dublinben 10y ago

Purism are working on a phone that should meet most of these requirements. Honestly, with such strict expectations, no smartphone will ever satisfy your needs.

scarface74 10y ago

"And please don't say iOS. It's closed source, which means we really don't know what's going on under the hood. We may trust it today, but one secret court order + an overnight update is all we need to lose everything with iOS. Apple execs may not even be made aware of such an update if the order was delivered to the engineers directly." So Android is "open source" even though most of what makes Android Android to most users -- Google Play Services and all of the Google apps and third party OEM apps are closed. But iOS is closed source even though parts of it are also open source?

dingaling 10y ago
> But iOS is closed source even though parts of it are also open source? Android will run ( and performs all the expected smartphone functions ) using only open-source. iOS won't boot using only open-source. I'm not a fan of Android in general but reluctantly continue using it with that distinction as consolation.
- scarface74 10y ago
  Can you use an App Store? Are the baseband drivers open source, the graphic drivers? Are any of the drivers open source?
Taek 10y ago
I asked people not to suggest iOS because I thought it likely that they would. I did not think it likely that people would suggest Android is acceptably secure, and indeed they did not. iOS has the high ground between the two, but neither are anywhere close to acceptable.

mschuster91 10y ago

> Would be a great step to have a phone that: Fully open source. Two problems remaining why this won't happen: a) Baseband (which in some cases has direct access to the microphone, or worse, DMA link to the CPU, or even worse, integrated into the SoC) firmware b) Linux kernel. So many manufacturers either blatantly ignore the GPL by not releasing kernel source code, and nearly all of them, instead of cooperating with upstream, fork the kernels and add literal crap on their trees. The horrors I have seen, especially in leaked Mediatek source trees... unimaginable. I can certainly understand why Mediatek does not want to release kernel sources. Also this is the biggest threat to the Android ecosystem. Either some kernel contributor sues Mediatek and other shoddy OEM/ODMs for enough money that they go down (unlikely), or the kernel forks by manufacturers will go so hard out of sync that new userlands of Android will simply not work with fossilized kernels. Same as in the embedded-Linux world... I believe a lot of manufacturers operate by "lets either not release code at all or code so shoddy no one else wants to release anything based on it", and thus holding privacy, security and competition hostage. Especially as competition is stuff like cyanogenmod which removes all the nasty tracking/adware whose data sales the OEMs intend to monetize...

rsync 10y ago

"Between the Google play store, Android's general insecurity, and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware, what alternatives exist?" There are no alternatives until we have an open baseband. Every objection you state in your comment about android (and iOS) is dwarfed by the objections you would have if you truly understood the two other general purpose computers inside your phone that you have no control over - namely, your baseband processor and your SIM card. Your carrier owns you. Your carrier owns you more deeply than any spyware author ever dreamed of owning you. Your carrier can upload and run arbitrary java applets onto your SIM card without you ever knowing. Your carrier, depending on which SOC you have and how it is implemented, can access your CPU and memory directly. As in, read the passphrase of your cutesy encrypted chat app as you key it in. We cannot begin to speak of a secure mobile platform or any kind of open source mobile platform until we have an open baseband and control our own SIM cards. We are very, very far away from this. In the meantime, you have two choices: 1. treat your mobile device as fully compromised and behave accordingly. This is what I do. 2. Buy a non-cellular mobile device (for instance, the old "samsung galaxy player" devices that have no mobile chipset or SIM card) and insert a cellular modem into the USB port and segregate that function there, and use VOIP software. This actually sounds sort-of workable except for one interesting problem - in addition to handling cellular communications, the baseband also handles voice quality like noise cancellation and so on that also needs to be done in real-time and not interrupted by userland events ... and so your actual voice quality will drop as a result of using VOIP on a handset.

natdempk 10y ago
How does iOS and the iPhone handle this SIM card/baseband processor issue? Is there an article that details the exact threat model and defenses in place?
- londons_explore 10y ago
  iOS uses Qualcomm and Intel chipsets for basebands. For Qualcomm at least, they share a lot of code with Android, and nearly all the code is fully closed source, even to Apple engineers building the phone above. Note that code does everything from camera autofocus to doing NAT for tethering, to audio decoding while the CPU is sleeping, to setting up the GPU, to handling supercomplex GSM protocols, to determining USB charging current and serial debug interfaces. It is probably more complex than the whole of the rest of the OS. Looking at the quality of open source code from Qualcomm, I have nearly zero confidence in the security of that baseband. I'm confident you could find an "accidentally" open debug interface within a few days of looking.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

js2 10y ago

"There are no secure smartphones" 374 points, 441 days ago, 118 comments. Note the discussion about baseband. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643

forgotmysn 10y ago
Is the blackphone not secure? I ask this out of genuine ignorance https://www.silentcircle.com/products-and-solutions/devices/ https://www.silentcircle.com/products-and-solutions/devices/
- devopsproject 10y ago
  There are no secure smartphones. Period.

austenallred 10y ago

If you use wireless data it doesn't matter; the carriers sell everything you do anyway

cr0sh 10y ago

You could build your own. I'm sure you've seen the Arduino DIY phone? Take something like that - but use a RasPi Zero W - add on a better touchscreen (plenty of options there). The Arduino version used a 3G module - but if you are willing to fork out the money, you can find 4G modules out there (they aren't cheap, though). Then all you have to do as the code magic, a 3d printed case, etc... You'll still need a cell service provider, of course - no real way to get around that, unless you wanted to set up some kind of wifi auto-hacking system to scrounge off of insecure (and other free) wifi nodes (coverage would be spotty, of course).

bogomipz 10y ago

>"and now cell carriers actively pushing spyware," Have there been other carriers pushing such spyware out to Android phones in in addition to Verizon?