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> everything the conventional media say is probably false Exactly, and I'll take an example on the gender pay gap situation. Why this one? Because it drives cr

by tajen 10y ago

> everything the conventional media say is probably false Exactly, and I'll take an example on the gender pay gap situation. Why this one? Because it drives crowds like crazy. If I take this random article [1], and it's a general trend, its title is a lie in the face of the very statistics that its sources are based on (and note that the underlying source isn't even scientifically cross-checked). The title and intro says women are paid $0.76 for a $1. After integrating a few criteria, it says that the measured difference is 2.4% (and that's without even taking into account all considerations). But most people in America only remember the 76% figure, which would depict a disgustingly macho situation... if it were true. When you hear, let's call them, "mainstream media" deforming a story from 2.4% to 76% and spinning off a title depicting a disgusting image of men (and I didn't even start cross-checking the study, I'm just using the article's own source), it's hard to trust that journalists aren't hugely deforming other stories. It's not a tiny problem: When the same journalists try to alert on Trump's behavior with women (which probably are crimes, so it's quite bad to elect such a president), they get brushed off by voters as a probably biased piece by an undercover Democrat who's trying to turn everything into sexism (like the article above). So, yes, credit to conventional media: Not so much. [1] http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/men-still-earn-more-than-women-with-the-same-jobs.html http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/men-still-earn-more-than-wome...

mtberatwork 10y ago
This isn't false news, I just think you are misreading the article. It states that overall (the uncontrolled gap according to the study) the gap is 24% (not 76% fyi) but when controlling for education, experience and title the gap is 2.4%. Point being, a gap still exists, even when controlling for these various factors...which is reflected in the title: "Men still earn more than women with the same jobs"
- dukeluke 10y ago
  The point isn't the specifics of that one article. The point is that because most news organizations have soiled their reputation by misconstruing statistics to generate outrage, many people don't trust legitimate outrage-worthy articles anymore.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
I may be missing something, but you seem to have debunked your own comment. The headline is "Men still earn more than women in the same jobs" and in your comment you both a) say this is a lie based on their figures, and b) quote their figures as saying Men earn 2.4% more than women in the same job with matched experience. Are you sure you're not more part of the problem than the media you're attacking? Weirdly, this is far from the first time I've seen someone angrily declare that the gender pay gap doesn't exist, and then cite sources that says it does. Which is kinda weird when you think about it. edited to add: I think what's happening here is that someone has decided that the simplistic figure of 76% or whatever doesn't count. Because you can compare apples to apples, which gets you the 2.4% figure. And they're so keen to make that point (and relevantly to rail against the "sexist anti-men mainstream media" which basically doesn't exist) that they ignore the still existing gap, even under those circumstances. Which kind of distracts further from the point that if women have been systematically excluded from high paying roles for decades, or are penalised harshly for giving birth, then that'll still show up in the total figures, and can still be considered a problem even if some people want to say "it's your own fault for choosing to have children, anything that befalls you from that point is on you, and has nothing to do with society".
- tajen 10y ago
  > You seem to have debunked your own comment. Are you saying my comment is debunked because 2.4% is still a gender gap? If so, this is why I say it would be good for journalists to interview scientists: They'd help understanding the difficulty of depicting reality with statistics (see next paragraph). The article just shows raw, non-scientific statistics, spun with an inaccurate interpretation, instead of showing integrity by properly reporting scientific studies. 2.4% average means the gender gap is wider in some sectors, but also negative in other sectors. A 24% pay gap would make it likely that gender gap is wide in all sectors. This is entirely another story: The first one shows general despise on women; The second one shows a society where men reach good progress in integrating women despite some sectors that remain misogynist (and racist, probably). The title tries to spin the first one: Does it show integrity? The article could, for example, list sectors where women are still badly considered, and show that there is progress in others. For example, if you only take the 150 large US cities, women's pay is usually 8% larger than men[2]. Surprising, isn't it? That hints that agricultural jobs or smaller cities are more misogynist, and other sectors are the opposite (favorable to women) – and that's when we start depicting a situation we can act upon. I've only shown 2 facts in this comment; Hundreds could be said about the single, short article I've brought to you. Although we could debate all day long, I'd rather expect journalists to show both sides of the story. That was supposed to be their job, wasn't it? Of course it's easier to title an article "Women are paid less", because it doesn't depict the possible ways of taking action, but rather spreads outrage of both camps (feminists and equalitarians). Ignorance and outrage, of course, creates views and votes. [2] http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274...

by tajen 10y ago

mtberatwork 10y ago

This isn't false news, I just think you are misreading the article. It states that overall (the uncontrolled gap according to the study) the gap is 24% (not 76% fyi) but when controlling for education, experience and title the gap is 2.4%. Point being, a gap still exists, even when controlling for these various factors...which is reflected in the title: "Men still earn more than women with the same jobs"

dukeluke 10y ago
The point isn't the specifics of that one article. The point is that because most news organizations have soiled their reputation by misconstruing statistics to generate outrage, many people don't trust legitimate outrage-worthy articles anymore.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

I may be missing something, but you seem to have debunked your own comment. The headline is "Men still earn more than women in the same jobs" and in your comment you both a) say this is a lie based on their figures, and b) quote their figures as saying Men earn 2.4% more than women in the same job with matched experience. Are you sure you're not more part of the problem than the media you're attacking? Weirdly, this is far from the first time I've seen someone angrily declare that the gender pay gap doesn't exist, and then cite sources that says it does. Which is kinda weird when you think about it. edited to add: I think what's happening here is that someone has decided that the simplistic figure of 76% or whatever doesn't count. Because you can compare apples to apples, which gets you the 2.4% figure. And they're so keen to make that point (and relevantly to rail against the "sexist anti-men mainstream media" which basically doesn't exist) that they ignore the still existing gap, even under those circumstances. Which kind of distracts further from the point that if women have been systematically excluded from high paying roles for decades, or are penalised harshly for giving birth, then that'll still show up in the total figures, and can still be considered a problem even if some people want to say "it's your own fault for choosing to have children, anything that befalls you from that point is on you, and has nothing to do with society".

tajen 10y ago
> You seem to have debunked your own comment. Are you saying my comment is debunked because 2.4% is still a gender gap? If so, this is why I say it would be good for journalists to interview scientists: They'd help understanding the difficulty of depicting reality with statistics (see next paragraph). The article just shows raw, non-scientific statistics, spun with an inaccurate interpretation, instead of showing integrity by properly reporting scientific studies. 2.4% average means the gender gap is wider in some sectors, but also negative in other sectors. A 24% pay gap would make it likely that gender gap is wide in all sectors. This is entirely another story: The first one shows general despise on women; The second one shows a society where men reach good progress in integrating women despite some sectors that remain misogynist (and racist, probably). The title tries to spin the first one: Does it show integrity? The article could, for example, list sectors where women are still badly considered, and show that there is progress in others. For example, if you only take the 150 large US cities, women's pay is usually 8% larger than men[2]. Surprising, isn't it? That hints that agricultural jobs or smaller cities are more misogynist, and other sectors are the opposite (favorable to women) – and that's when we start depicting a situation we can act upon. I've only shown 2 facts in this comment; Hundreds could be said about the single, short article I've brought to you. Although we could debate all day long, I'd rather expect journalists to show both sides of the story. That was supposed to be their job, wasn't it? Of course it's easier to title an article "Women are paid less", because it doesn't depict the possible ways of taking action, but rather spreads outrage of both camps (feminists and equalitarians). Ignorance and outrage, of course, creates views and votes. [2] http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274...