5 ms·

At en established company — most definitely. However, those are not everything there is on the job market.

paganel 10y ago
I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). I found that crazy, I guess I'll stick to working at small companies for as long as they'll employ me.
- davnicwil 10y ago
  > a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades It's usually called a 'transcript' (in British English at least)
  - throwanem 10y ago
    In American, too. (That would be a hell of a strange thing for a potential employer to ask for here, too.)
    - sndean 10y ago
      AFAIK, it's normal for them to ask for official transcripts if you put "PhD" on your transcripts. (I hope they ask for proof of a MD, too...) But yeah, at the same employer, they apparently don't ask for proof of a master's degree (or BS).
- ra1n85 10y ago
  I've worked for several large companies in the US. I've never needed to provide college transcripts. Further, after significant involvement in the interview and hiring process at my last position (a very large technology company), it's my belief that this would be counter-productive to most firms. Finding candidates that have the skillsets necessary, fit the culture, and perform well in the interviews is difficult enough.
  - zerkten 10y ago
    It's more likely that an employer in Europe, or Asia will ask for this. If you were coming to the US on an H1B visa, you'll have to file paperwork as part of the credential evaluation. For me, this involved a third-party reviewing that my degree was equivalent to that from a US university. Your comment on "fit the culture" can be considered somewhat offensive, and an indicator to candidates that they may want to consider other opportunities.
    - kittiepryde 10y ago
      That's a normal phrase in America. And yeah it's a generic term that can encompass nearly anything.
      - acjohnson55 10y ago
        A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.
        ra1n85 10y ago
        >A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills. I think you're a ways off here. Culture is character (and not a "bundle of soft skills"). Some companies want candidates that value and empathize with customers. Others may want candidates that demonstrate integrity and ability to collaborate with others. Often, these values are codified as principals to work and measure by. When a candidate fails to demonstrate valued traits, or provides examples that are contrary to those values, that is "not a culture fit".
        acjohnson55 10y ago
        I think you and I largely agree. My point is that companies can avoid intellectual laziness by doing exactly what you just did: being clear about what specific skills and behaviors they value. Because "culture", in vernacular, does not mean what you propose. Would you agree that it broadly consists ofthe shared history and norms that bind a group together socially? That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it does implicitly defining other people as outsiders. When you add "fit", it can become exclusionary. That's what I mean by the term legitimizing bias.
- koolba 10y ago
  > I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). Just a guess but I'd say they've been burned in the past by people lying about their transcripts (class/grade history) and as a result they ask for it going forward. Either that or overzealous HR trying creating more work and process. I've never heard of a company in the USA asking for a transcript. I'm not aware of anyone asking for a copy of a diploma either. Though presumably if you lie about it on your employment application and they subsequently find out about it it'd be grounds for termination with cause.
- mattmanser 10y ago
  That's not necessarily because they require it, but simply a hr policy because he put them on his CV. Some people lie about qualifications.

I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). I found that crazy, I guess I'll stick to working at small companies for as long as they'll employ me.

davnicwil 10y ago
> a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades It's usually called a 'transcript' (in British English at least)
- throwanem 10y ago
  In American, too. (That would be a hell of a strange thing for a potential employer to ask for here, too.)
  - sndean 10y ago
    AFAIK, it's normal for them to ask for official transcripts if you put "PhD" on your transcripts. (I hope they ask for proof of a MD, too...) But yeah, at the same employer, they apparently don't ask for proof of a master's degree (or BS).
ra1n85 10y ago
I've worked for several large companies in the US. I've never needed to provide college transcripts. Further, after significant involvement in the interview and hiring process at my last position (a very large technology company), it's my belief that this would be counter-productive to most firms. Finding candidates that have the skillsets necessary, fit the culture, and perform well in the interviews is difficult enough.
- zerkten 10y ago
  It's more likely that an employer in Europe, or Asia will ask for this. If you were coming to the US on an H1B visa, you'll have to file paperwork as part of the credential evaluation. For me, this involved a third-party reviewing that my degree was equivalent to that from a US university. Your comment on "fit the culture" can be considered somewhat offensive, and an indicator to candidates that they may want to consider other opportunities.
  - kittiepryde 10y ago
    That's a normal phrase in America. And yeah it's a generic term that can encompass nearly anything.
    - acjohnson55 10y ago
      A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.
      - ra1n85 10y ago
        >A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills. I think you're a ways off here. Culture is character (and not a "bundle of soft skills"). Some companies want candidates that value and empathize with customers. Others may want candidates that demonstrate integrity and ability to collaborate with others. Often, these values are codified as principals to work and measure by. When a candidate fails to demonstrate valued traits, or provides examples that are contrary to those values, that is "not a culture fit".
        acjohnson55 10y ago
        I think you and I largely agree. My point is that companies can avoid intellectual laziness by doing exactly what you just did: being clear about what specific skills and behaviors they value. Because "culture", in vernacular, does not mean what you propose. Would you agree that it broadly consists ofthe shared history and norms that bind a group together socially? That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it does implicitly defining other people as outsiders. When you add "fit", it can become exclusionary. That's what I mean by the term legitimizing bias.
koolba 10y ago
> I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). Just a guess but I'd say they've been burned in the past by people lying about their transcripts (class/grade history) and as a result they ask for it going forward. Either that or overzealous HR trying creating more work and process. I've never heard of a company in the USA asking for a transcript. I'm not aware of anyone asking for a copy of a diploma either. Though presumably if you lie about it on your employment application and they subsequently find out about it it'd be grounds for termination with cause.
mattmanser 10y ago
That's not necessarily because they require it, but simply a hr policy because he put them on his CV. Some people lie about qualifications.