6 ms·

I'm talking about Europe (where college is in general more affordable and there is no stigma associated to getting your degree from a public school), but if you

by Kurtz79 10y ago

I'm talking about Europe (where college is in general more affordable and there is no stigma associated to getting your degree from a public school), but if you are looking for employment as a professional at an established company, with no previous experience, not having a degree will definitely make it harder: - To get an interview in the first place. - To get a decent starting salary. - To get into management positions as you progress.

atemerev 10y ago
At en established company — most definitely. However, those are not everything there is on the job market.
- paganel 10y ago
  I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). I found that crazy, I guess I'll stick to working at small companies for as long as they'll employ me.
  - davnicwil 10y ago
    > a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades It's usually called a 'transcript' (in British English at least)
    - throwanem 10y ago
      In American, too. (That would be a hell of a strange thing for a potential employer to ask for here, too.)
      - sndean 10y ago
        AFAIK, it's normal for them to ask for official transcripts if you put "PhD" on your transcripts. (I hope they ask for proof of a MD, too...) But yeah, at the same employer, they apparently don't ask for proof of a master's degree (or BS).
  - ra1n85 10y ago
    I've worked for several large companies in the US. I've never needed to provide college transcripts. Further, after significant involvement in the interview and hiring process at my last position (a very large technology company), it's my belief that this would be counter-productive to most firms. Finding candidates that have the skillsets necessary, fit the culture, and perform well in the interviews is difficult enough.
    - zerkten 10y ago
      It's more likely that an employer in Europe, or Asia will ask for this. If you were coming to the US on an H1B visa, you'll have to file paperwork as part of the credential evaluation. For me, this involved a third-party reviewing that my degree was equivalent to that from a US university. Your comment on "fit the culture" can be considered somewhat offensive, and an indicator to candidates that they may want to consider other opportunities.
      - kittiepryde 10y ago
        That's a normal phrase in America. And yeah it's a generic term that can encompass nearly anything.
        acjohnson55 10y ago
        A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.
        ra1n85 10y ago
        >A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills. I think you're a ways off here. Culture is character (and not a "bundle of soft skills"). Some companies want candidates that value and empathize with customers. Others may want candidates that demonstrate integrity and ability to collaborate with others. Often, these values are codified as principals to work and measure by. When a candidate fails to demonstrate valued traits, or provides examples that are contrary to those values, that is "not a culture fit".
  - koolba 10y ago
    > I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). Just a guess but I'd say they've been burned in the past by people lying about their transcripts (class/grade history) and as a result they ask for it going forward. Either that or overzealous HR trying creating more work and process. I've never heard of a company in the USA asking for a transcript. I'm not aware of anyone asking for a copy of a diploma either. Though presumably if you lie about it on your employment application and they subsequently find out about it it'd be grounds for termination with cause.
  - mattmanser 10y ago
    That's not necessarily because they require it, but simply a hr policy because he put them on his CV. Some people lie about qualifications.
olegkikin 10y ago
What makes you a professional if you have no experience and no degree?
- John23832 10y ago
  There are plenty of examples of people succeeding on a "professional" level with no degree in their field of work, or no degree at all. Especially in CS/IT. "Being a professional" is about your ability and how you go about doing your job.
  - olegkikin 10y ago
    You forgot to address the lack of experience.
    - John23832 10y ago
      I think being able to do the job at a "professional" level implies you have experience in the subject matter. Now, that experience may not be formal... but formal experience isn't the end-all-be-all anyway. There are plenty of CS masters/PHD holders who write horrifically unprofessional code.
- chrisbennet 10y ago
  Getting paid to do something...
hocuspocus 10y ago
I agree you probably need a degree but it doesn't have to be a college degree. There are many European countries where trade/vocational training is working well and most people don't go to college.
- gumby 10y ago
  True, but that is industry- and role-specific.
doktrin 10y ago
I'm very early in the process of looking for a job in Europe, and lots of things do indeed seem to be different. Here are some things I've been asked to provide prior to an interview (that none of my US-based employers have requested) : * Full life-long gapless CV * marital status * family status * hobbies * original college transcript * multiple references * picture To your point, there definitely seems to be more stigma against those without college education. I once accidentally sent a resume without my college info, and was asked matter-of-factly if I was "uneducated". In the US, most employers don't even seem to care about my schooling anymore since I have 5+ years of professional experience.
- Kurtz79 10y ago
  It probably varies (country by country inside Europe, and even company by company), but being asked about marital, family status, hobbies and picture seems unusual to me. Gapless CV, degree transcript and references are more common.
- kec 10y ago
  Several of those things are inadvisible / effectively illegal for US employers to ask due to anti discrimination laws.
metaphor 10y ago
>> ...and there is no stigma associated to getting your degree from a public school What countries have this problem?

by Kurtz79 10y ago

atemerev 10y ago

At en established company — most definitely. However, those are not everything there is on the job market.

paganel 10y ago
I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). I found that crazy, I guess I'll stick to working at small companies for as long as they'll employ me.
- davnicwil 10y ago
  > a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades It's usually called a 'transcript' (in British English at least)
  - throwanem 10y ago
    In American, too. (That would be a hell of a strange thing for a potential employer to ask for here, too.)
    - sndean 10y ago
      AFAIK, it's normal for them to ask for official transcripts if you put "PhD" on your transcripts. (I hope they ask for proof of a MD, too...) But yeah, at the same employer, they apparently don't ask for proof of a master's degree (or BS).
- ra1n85 10y ago
  I've worked for several large companies in the US. I've never needed to provide college transcripts. Further, after significant involvement in the interview and hiring process at my last position (a very large technology company), it's my belief that this would be counter-productive to most firms. Finding candidates that have the skillsets necessary, fit the culture, and perform well in the interviews is difficult enough.
  - zerkten 10y ago
    It's more likely that an employer in Europe, or Asia will ask for this. If you were coming to the US on an H1B visa, you'll have to file paperwork as part of the credential evaluation. For me, this involved a third-party reviewing that my degree was equivalent to that from a US university. Your comment on "fit the culture" can be considered somewhat offensive, and an indicator to candidates that they may want to consider other opportunities.
    - kittiepryde 10y ago
      That's a normal phrase in America. And yeah it's a generic term that can encompass nearly anything.
      - acjohnson55 10y ago
        A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.
        ra1n85 10y ago
        >A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills. I think you're a ways off here. Culture is character (and not a "bundle of soft skills"). Some companies want candidates that value and empathize with customers. Others may want candidates that demonstrate integrity and ability to collaborate with others. Often, these values are codified as principals to work and measure by. When a candidate fails to demonstrate valued traits, or provides examples that are contrary to those values, that is "not a culture fit".
- koolba 10y ago
  > I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). Just a guess but I'd say they've been burned in the past by people lying about their transcripts (class/grade history) and as a result they ask for it going forward. Either that or overzealous HR trying creating more work and process. I've never heard of a company in the USA asking for a transcript. I'm not aware of anyone asking for a copy of a diploma either. Though presumably if you lie about it on your employment application and they subsequently find out about it it'd be grounds for termination with cause.
- mattmanser 10y ago
  That's not necessarily because they require it, but simply a hr policy because he put them on his CV. Some people lie about qualifications.

olegkikin 10y ago

What makes you a professional if you have no experience and no degree?

John23832 10y ago
There are plenty of examples of people succeeding on a "professional" level with no degree in their field of work, or no degree at all. Especially in CS/IT. "Being a professional" is about your ability and how you go about doing your job.
- olegkikin 10y ago
  You forgot to address the lack of experience.
  - John23832 10y ago
    I think being able to do the job at a "professional" level implies you have experience in the subject matter. Now, that experience may not be formal... but formal experience isn't the end-all-be-all anyway. There are plenty of CS masters/PHD holders who write horrifically unprofessional code.
chrisbennet 10y ago
Getting paid to do something...

hocuspocus 10y ago

I agree you probably need a degree but it doesn't have to be a college degree. There are many European countries where trade/vocational training is working well and most people don't go to college.

gumby 10y ago
True, but that is industry- and role-specific.

doktrin 10y ago

I'm very early in the process of looking for a job in Europe, and lots of things do indeed seem to be different. Here are some things I've been asked to provide prior to an interview (that none of my US-based employers have requested) : * Full life-long gapless CV * marital status * family status * hobbies * original college transcript * multiple references * picture To your point, there definitely seems to be more stigma against those without college education. I once accidentally sent a resume without my college info, and was asked matter-of-factly if I was "uneducated". In the US, most employers don't even seem to care about my schooling anymore since I have 5+ years of professional experience.

Kurtz79 10y ago
It probably varies (country by country inside Europe, and even company by company), but being asked about marital, family status, hobbies and picture seems unusual to me. Gapless CV, degree transcript and references are more common.
kec 10y ago
Several of those things are inadvisible / effectively illegal for US employers to ask due to anti discrimination laws.

metaphor 10y ago

>> ...and there is no stigma associated to getting your degree from a public school What countries have this problem?