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Most of the degree is waste if you want to be a software dev (IMHO). The industry could do really well out of recognizing that it's a vocational occupation and

Most of the degree is waste if you want to be a software dev (IMHO). The industry could do really well out of recognizing that it's a vocational occupation and switching to an apprenticeship model.

pizza 10y ago
To zeroth degree approximation, colleges are cert-authorities
- UK-AL 10y ago
  Vocational education normally is certification based.
  - DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
    Is a technically-focused university diploma fundamentally different than a trade-school certification, aside from the particulars of what material was learned?
    - UK-AL 10y ago
      Well the particulars of what taught is exactly the difference. In computer science you will learning about generic concepts like parsers, compilers or whatever. For vocational you would learn about something specific like asp.net mvc.
DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
In my experience, your point is valid regarding some software jobs, but not all. As I've worked my way into more technically demanding roles, it's been very useful to have a foundation of big-O analysis, the expressive power of different levels in the Chomsky hierarchy, (mathematical) optimization theory, graph theory, compilers, and/or computer architecture. Many of these topics could be learned by a bright person on-demand. However, some of the topics are important to be familiar with before taking on a project, because they let you avoid costly, time-consuming mistakes.
- zer0tonin 10y ago
  Going to university doesn't mean you will learn any of these.
  - jghn 10y ago
    However obtaining a Computer Science degree should imply that you have.
- Chathamization 10y ago
  Those can be learned outside of the university, though. Some certification that takes them into account would be useful. Having to waste 4 years and a ton of money just so you have a piece of paper showing people that you know what you knew before seems extremely wasteful.
watwut 10y ago
It pretty often works that way. However, you need network of friends for that - someone who knows you and knows you are generally smart giving you a chance despite you knowing only a little. School acts a bit like equalizer - it allows you to a.) create network b.) acts as alternative to experience in case you don't have network.
HillaryBriss 10y ago
> Most of the degree is a waste ... a major part of the mission of any college is its ability to pick a curriculum that actually has value for the student's life and career - topics whose study will be truly worthwhile. colleges are saying "of all the topics you might study, out of the vast ocean of knowledge which a person could not hope to master in ten lifetimes, we have selected a manageable but critical/valuable/useful subset." based on your comment and many others, it seems colleges are failing at that part of the mission. it seems the world is simply changing too fast and most colleges fail to keep up.
walshemj 10y ago
You mean devalue the dev role and pay them less Id bet that to progress to CTO/CEO you will still need a degree. This is the unspoken down side to the German model if Hans take the vocational track he will be limiting his career progression.

Most of the degree is waste if you want to be a software dev (IMHO). The industry could do really well out of recognizing that it's a vocational occupation and switching to an apprenticeship model.

pizza 10y ago

To zeroth degree approximation, colleges are cert-authorities

UK-AL 10y ago
Vocational education normally is certification based.
- DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
  Is a technically-focused university diploma fundamentally different than a trade-school certification, aside from the particulars of what material was learned?
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    Well the particulars of what taught is exactly the difference. In computer science you will learning about generic concepts like parsers, compilers or whatever. For vocational you would learn about something specific like asp.net mvc.

DoofusOfDeath 10y ago

In my experience, your point is valid regarding some software jobs, but not all. As I've worked my way into more technically demanding roles, it's been very useful to have a foundation of big-O analysis, the expressive power of different levels in the Chomsky hierarchy, (mathematical) optimization theory, graph theory, compilers, and/or computer architecture. Many of these topics could be learned by a bright person on-demand. However, some of the topics are important to be familiar with before taking on a project, because they let you avoid costly, time-consuming mistakes.

zer0tonin 10y ago
Going to university doesn't mean you will learn any of these.
- jghn 10y ago
  However obtaining a Computer Science degree should imply that you have.
Chathamization 10y ago
Those can be learned outside of the university, though. Some certification that takes them into account would be useful. Having to waste 4 years and a ton of money just so you have a piece of paper showing people that you know what you knew before seems extremely wasteful.

watwut 10y ago

It pretty often works that way. However, you need network of friends for that - someone who knows you and knows you are generally smart giving you a chance despite you knowing only a little. School acts a bit like equalizer - it allows you to a.) create network b.) acts as alternative to experience in case you don't have network.

HillaryBriss 10y ago

> Most of the degree is a waste ... a major part of the mission of any college is its ability to pick a curriculum that actually has value for the student's life and career - topics whose study will be truly worthwhile. colleges are saying "of all the topics you might study, out of the vast ocean of knowledge which a person could not hope to master in ten lifetimes, we have selected a manageable but critical/valuable/useful subset." based on your comment and many others, it seems colleges are failing at that part of the mission. it seems the world is simply changing too fast and most colleges fail to keep up.

walshemj 10y ago

You mean devalue the dev role and pay them less Id bet that to progress to CTO/CEO you will still need a degree. This is the unspoken down side to the German model if Hans take the vocational track he will be limiting his career progression.