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I appreciate the pushback. Here is what Nagel says in his essay (emphasis mine). I wonder if you still disagree? "It is impossible to exclude the phenomenologi

I appreciate the pushback. Here is what Nagel says in his essay (emphasis mine). I wonder if you still disagree? "It is impossible to exclude the phenomenological features of experience from a reduction in the same way that one excludes the phenomenal features of an ordinary substance from a physical or chemical reduction of it--namely, by explaining them as effects on the minds of human observers. If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view."

danbruc 10y ago
Let me counter with this quote. If we acknowledge that a physical theory of mind must account for the subjective character of experience, we must admit that no presently available conception gives us a clue how this could be done. The problem is unique. If mental processes are indeed physical processes, then there is something it is like, intrinsically, to undergo certain physical processes. What it is for such a thing to be the case remains a mystery. I think the critical point in your quote is the last sentence. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view. Sure, my experience of looking at a red object is fundamentally my experience, but there seems to be no obvious reason why we could not abstract me away and talk about the experience of an arbitrary human seeing a red object. This is also in line with the suggestions at the very end, trying to develop the tools to talk about experiences in an objective manner.
- sahadeva 9y ago
  I don't think I fully understand what Nagel means by developing objective tools to describe experiences, I should re-read the full article a few more times. I think, though, that you're exactly right: We _do_ have a shared understanding and experience of what its like to see a red ball, and we can talk about it in the abstract. My reading of that is that because we do have a shared human experience there can and indeed must be a physical account (Nagel's term) of it. Nagel's argument brings in a wedge of doubt about whether that shared experience itself is real by saying, at least partially, that because we can't explain what it is like to be a bat (bat point of view) in human terms we won't be able explain what consciousness is for humans _or_ bats with a physical account (at all or at least right now). Dennett, I think, says that that is more or less backward, and that all the means is there are different kinds of consciousness. In the article I mention he says, "The big mistake we’re making,” [Dennett] said, “is taking our congenial, shared understanding of what it’s like to be us, which we learn from novels and plays and talking to each other, and then applying it back down the animal kingdom. Wittgenstein”—he deepened his voice—“famously wrote, ‘If a lion could talk, we couldn’t understand him.’ But no! If a lion could talk, we’d understand him just fine. He just wouldn’t help us understand anything about lions.” “Because he wouldn’t be a lion,” another researcher said. “Right,” Dennett replied. “He would be so different from regular lions that he wouldn’t tell us what it’s like to be a lion. I think we should just get used to the fact that the human concepts we apply so comfortably in our everyday lives apply only sort of to animals.” He concluded, “The notorious zombie problem is just a philosopher’s fantasy. It’s not anything that we have to take seriously.” I found that convincing, I'm curious if you do as well?
  - danbruc 9y ago
    I agree insofar as that being a lion or a bat is probably really different from being a human. It is a pity that I can not remember what it felt like when I was only one or two years old, that might provide a glimpse at the difference. In all the the time I can remember I was not fundamentally different from now, or at least that is how I remember it. I would really like to know how it was at a very young age, not speaking and understanding a language, not recognizing me in a mirror, maybe not even being aware of my existence. Anyhow. I did not read the entire Dennett article when it was posted here a few days ago, maybe I should, but it was just not compelling to me [1], at least as far as I got. What I got from the part I read is that he seems to do exactly what Nagel warns of, dismissing the experience of being a human. I find the comparison with a computer much more interesting than the comparison with animals. What if we build an artificial neural network resembling a human brain? If that is not good enough, what if we perform a molecular simulation of a brain? Or even a quantum physical simulation of a brain if molecules are still not good enough, but personally I doubt that. But what if? Does this artificial brain experience what it is like to be a human? As a pysicalist I think the answer is yes. But just as Nagel says, I have no idea how this could possibly work, how the transistors in my computer could go from controlling the flow of electrons by mindlessly following physical laws to being aware of their existence in a universe, seeing red, feeling joy and pain. What if I replaced the computer with a mechanical one made out of billions and billions of cogwheels? With stones on a beach simulating a Turing machine? With a gigantic printed look-up table mapping all possible inputs to their outputs? I can not think of any good reason why the stones on the beach - together with someone or something moving them around to perform the computation - should be any less conscious than the human brain they are simulating. And this seems of course absurd. Thinking about this is what gets me the closest to becoming a dualist or something like that. There seems to be not even the tiniest bit of hope at the horizon to even be able to attack this problem from a physicalist perspective. So when Dennett says that there is no problem, assuming he actually says this, then I must disagree. [1] I had prior exposure to Dennett and, as far as I remember, quite liked what he had to say but somehow not this time. Maybe the topic was a different one, maybe it is just the way the article is written, maybe I should just read the entire thing. P.S. I just did some more reading on Nagel, it seems you are at least more correct than me. He seems not as open to a physicalist account of consciousness as I thought but the details are hard to tell without actually reading more of his works.

danbruc 10y ago

Let me counter with this quote. If we acknowledge that a physical theory of mind must account for the subjective character of experience, we must admit that no presently available conception gives us a clue how this could be done. The problem is unique. If mental processes are indeed physical processes, then there is something it is like, intrinsically, to undergo certain physical processes. What it is for such a thing to be the case remains a mystery. I think the critical point in your quote is the last sentence. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view. Sure, my experience of looking at a red object is fundamentally my experience, but there seems to be no obvious reason why we could not abstract me away and talk about the experience of an arbitrary human seeing a red object. This is also in line with the suggestions at the very end, trying to develop the tools to talk about experiences in an objective manner.

sahadeva 9y ago
I don't think I fully understand what Nagel means by developing objective tools to describe experiences, I should re-read the full article a few more times. I think, though, that you're exactly right: We _do_ have a shared understanding and experience of what its like to see a red ball, and we can talk about it in the abstract. My reading of that is that because we do have a shared human experience there can and indeed must be a physical account (Nagel's term) of it. Nagel's argument brings in a wedge of doubt about whether that shared experience itself is real by saying, at least partially, that because we can't explain what it is like to be a bat (bat point of view) in human terms we won't be able explain what consciousness is for humans _or_ bats with a physical account (at all or at least right now). Dennett, I think, says that that is more or less backward, and that all the means is there are different kinds of consciousness. In the article I mention he says, "The big mistake we’re making,” [Dennett] said, “is taking our congenial, shared understanding of what it’s like to be us, which we learn from novels and plays and talking to each other, and then applying it back down the animal kingdom. Wittgenstein”—he deepened his voice—“famously wrote, ‘If a lion could talk, we couldn’t understand him.’ But no! If a lion could talk, we’d understand him just fine. He just wouldn’t help us understand anything about lions.” “Because he wouldn’t be a lion,” another researcher said. “Right,” Dennett replied. “He would be so different from regular lions that he wouldn’t tell us what it’s like to be a lion. I think we should just get used to the fact that the human concepts we apply so comfortably in our everyday lives apply only sort of to animals.” He concluded, “The notorious zombie problem is just a philosopher’s fantasy. It’s not anything that we have to take seriously.” I found that convincing, I'm curious if you do as well?
- danbruc 9y ago
  I agree insofar as that being a lion or a bat is probably really different from being a human. It is a pity that I can not remember what it felt like when I was only one or two years old, that might provide a glimpse at the difference. In all the the time I can remember I was not fundamentally different from now, or at least that is how I remember it. I would really like to know how it was at a very young age, not speaking and understanding a language, not recognizing me in a mirror, maybe not even being aware of my existence. Anyhow. I did not read the entire Dennett article when it was posted here a few days ago, maybe I should, but it was just not compelling to me [1], at least as far as I got. What I got from the part I read is that he seems to do exactly what Nagel warns of, dismissing the experience of being a human. I find the comparison with a computer much more interesting than the comparison with animals. What if we build an artificial neural network resembling a human brain? If that is not good enough, what if we perform a molecular simulation of a brain? Or even a quantum physical simulation of a brain if molecules are still not good enough, but personally I doubt that. But what if? Does this artificial brain experience what it is like to be a human? As a pysicalist I think the answer is yes. But just as Nagel says, I have no idea how this could possibly work, how the transistors in my computer could go from controlling the flow of electrons by mindlessly following physical laws to being aware of their existence in a universe, seeing red, feeling joy and pain. What if I replaced the computer with a mechanical one made out of billions and billions of cogwheels? With stones on a beach simulating a Turing machine? With a gigantic printed look-up table mapping all possible inputs to their outputs? I can not think of any good reason why the stones on the beach - together with someone or something moving them around to perform the computation - should be any less conscious than the human brain they are simulating. And this seems of course absurd. Thinking about this is what gets me the closest to becoming a dualist or something like that. There seems to be not even the tiniest bit of hope at the horizon to even be able to attack this problem from a physicalist perspective. So when Dennett says that there is no problem, assuming he actually says this, then I must disagree. [1] I had prior exposure to Dennett and, as far as I remember, quite liked what he had to say but somehow not this time. Maybe the topic was a different one, maybe it is just the way the article is written, maybe I should just read the entire thing. P.S. I just did some more reading on Nagel, it seems you are at least more correct than me. He seems not as open to a physicalist account of consciousness as I thought but the details are hard to tell without actually reading more of his works.