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Here's an old riddle. Say "silk" five times in quick succession. Now spell "silk". What does the cow drink? A surprising majority of people says "milk", whe

by 08-15 10y ago

Here's an old riddle. Say "silk" five times in quick succession. Now spell "silk". What does the cow drink? A surprising majority of people says "milk", when the correct answer is "water". This is obviously because of some sort of bias against water. Any other explanation is absolutely inconceivable.

krastanov 10y ago
This is a very fair argument against the particular anecdote, and it should be raised. But a lot of quite rigorous research, with well developed experimental techniques guarding exactly against those problems, has shown that bias (especially implicit bias of which you are not aware) exists against females in both men and women. "Implicit Bias" and "Stereotype Threat" are googleable terms that lead to well sourced materials.
- samatman 10y ago
  As is "Psychology Replication Crisis".
  - krastanov 10y ago
    Are you claiming that the research on Implicit bias or Stereotype threat is not reproducible (which is provably wrong, just by looking at google scholar search[1])? I would agree with you that the softer sciences historically have had problems with reproducibility and that there is a replication crisis, but I am talking about two specific, well studied (in multiple different settings) phenomena. I do not see how your comment contributes anything in this context. [1]: Admittedly it takes effort to sift through all the noise and find good meta studies. But everything takes effort.
- zzzcpan 10y ago
  "bias exists against females in both men and women" Biases exist against everyone. I don't get your point, but the riddle was rather misused and had nothing to do with gender bias. It's not really a bias to have a gender associated with a word.
  - krastanov 10y ago
    Yes, biases exist against everybody and the riddle is a poor example, but my point was that one poor argument does not invalidate all the research that points in the same direction: In the workplace the biases against women hardly compare to the biases against men.
erikpukinskis 10y ago
> A father and son are in a horrible car crash that kills the dad. The son is rushed to the hospital; just as he's about to go under the knife, the surgeon says, "I can’t operate—that boy is my son!" Explain. Well, so "silk" is priming your mind to think of similar words. Here are possible hypotheses about the doctor riddle: 1) The presence of a father in the story is priming the listener to think about fathers and not mothers. 2) The tone of a riddle implies there is a paradox, which suggests to the listener that the doctor is the father. 3) We are biased to think doctors are men. And you're saying that the author thinks it's inconceivable that #1 or #2 could be complete explanations? I think she admitted such... she believes that the bias exists and is merely looking for evidence. I don't think she is saying the study is conclusive though. Taken alone it doesn't prove anything. But there are lots of other studies showing similar effects. You can run the tests on yourself: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ I wish you would say a little more about what, specifically you are accusing the author of.
- DanBC 10y ago
  The Implicit Bias tests have been sort of debunked. http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-meas... These kinds of biases are a problem, but that's why we need to guard against bullshit like this riddle or the Implicit Bias tests, because they discredit the message.
- never-question 10y ago
  I didn't see anything resembling an accusation in the parent, just a quick demonstration of the linguistic tricks our minds can play on us and some sarcasm. What is it about pushing diversity that puts people in a near-constant defensive/attack posture? I understand that adoring surface-level diversity is not a universally accepted stance despite leagues of loudly fervent believers, but it seems unlikely that anyone thinks this posture is actually helpful. Or at least from the outside, it's pretty clear it isn't, maybe when you're in it, it feels right. I wish I got it.
  - apostacy 10y ago
jordonwii 10y ago
> A surprising majority of people says "milk", when the correct answer is "water". This is obviously because of some sort of bias against water. Any other explanation is absolutely inconceivable. It may have something to do with priming, as well, but the difficulty of the riddle clearly also involves gender associations. Someone I asked this riddle to got stumped. As an experiment, I changed the word "surgeon" to "nurse". They immediately answered that version correctly.
- 08-15 10y ago
  > changed the word "surgeon" to "nurse" But that's not surprising at all, is it? The verb "to nurse" means "to breastfeed", and it's damn near impossible to associate a man with that word. It may be a bad word to describe a profession, but this particular association is really explained by the other meanings of the word. My native tongue is German. We call a nurse "Krankenschwester", literally sick-people-sister. The male equivalent "Krankenbruder" doesn't exist. This badly chosen name makes it even harder to think of a nurse as male.

by 08-15 10y ago

krastanov 10y ago

This is a very fair argument against the particular anecdote, and it should be raised. But a lot of quite rigorous research, with well developed experimental techniques guarding exactly against those problems, has shown that bias (especially implicit bias of which you are not aware) exists against females in both men and women. "Implicit Bias" and "Stereotype Threat" are googleable terms that lead to well sourced materials.

samatman 10y ago
As is "Psychology Replication Crisis".
- krastanov 10y ago
  Are you claiming that the research on Implicit bias or Stereotype threat is not reproducible (which is provably wrong, just by looking at google scholar search[1])? I would agree with you that the softer sciences historically have had problems with reproducibility and that there is a replication crisis, but I am talking about two specific, well studied (in multiple different settings) phenomena. I do not see how your comment contributes anything in this context. [1]: Admittedly it takes effort to sift through all the noise and find good meta studies. But everything takes effort.
zzzcpan 10y ago
"bias exists against females in both men and women" Biases exist against everyone. I don't get your point, but the riddle was rather misused and had nothing to do with gender bias. It's not really a bias to have a gender associated with a word.
- krastanov 10y ago
  Yes, biases exist against everybody and the riddle is a poor example, but my point was that one poor argument does not invalidate all the research that points in the same direction: In the workplace the biases against women hardly compare to the biases against men.

erikpukinskis 10y ago

> A father and son are in a horrible car crash that kills the dad. The son is rushed to the hospital; just as he's about to go under the knife, the surgeon says, "I can’t operate—that boy is my son!" Explain. Well, so "silk" is priming your mind to think of similar words. Here are possible hypotheses about the doctor riddle: 1) The presence of a father in the story is priming the listener to think about fathers and not mothers. 2) The tone of a riddle implies there is a paradox, which suggests to the listener that the doctor is the father. 3) We are biased to think doctors are men. And you're saying that the author thinks it's inconceivable that #1 or #2 could be complete explanations? I think she admitted such... she believes that the bias exists and is merely looking for evidence. I don't think she is saying the study is conclusive though. Taken alone it doesn't prove anything. But there are lots of other studies showing similar effects. You can run the tests on yourself: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ I wish you would say a little more about what, specifically you are accusing the author of.

DanBC 10y ago
The Implicit Bias tests have been sort of debunked. http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-meas... These kinds of biases are a problem, but that's why we need to guard against bullshit like this riddle or the Implicit Bias tests, because they discredit the message.
never-question 10y ago
I didn't see anything resembling an accusation in the parent, just a quick demonstration of the linguistic tricks our minds can play on us and some sarcasm. What is it about pushing diversity that puts people in a near-constant defensive/attack posture? I understand that adoring surface-level diversity is not a universally accepted stance despite leagues of loudly fervent believers, but it seems unlikely that anyone thinks this posture is actually helpful. Or at least from the outside, it's pretty clear it isn't, maybe when you're in it, it feels right. I wish I got it.
- apostacy 10y ago

jordonwii 10y ago

> A surprising majority of people says "milk", when the correct answer is "water". This is obviously because of some sort of bias against water. Any other explanation is absolutely inconceivable. It may have something to do with priming, as well, but the difficulty of the riddle clearly also involves gender associations. Someone I asked this riddle to got stumped. As an experiment, I changed the word "surgeon" to "nurse". They immediately answered that version correctly.

08-15 10y ago
> changed the word "surgeon" to "nurse" But that's not surprising at all, is it? The verb "to nurse" means "to breastfeed", and it's damn near impossible to associate a man with that word. It may be a bad word to describe a profession, but this particular association is really explained by the other meanings of the word. My native tongue is German. We call a nurse "Krankenschwester", literally sick-people-sister. The male equivalent "Krankenbruder" doesn't exist. This badly chosen name makes it even harder to think of a nurse as male.