4 ms·

No, I am just arguing that someone's grade on a test is directly linked to how well they do on the test and not necessarily on how much studying they did. If y

by jartelt 10y ago

No, I am just arguing that someone's grade on a test is directly linked to how well they do on the test and not necessarily on how much studying they did. If you don't like university tests, that is fine (I do not believe they are perfect either). But, they do a decent job of determining if a student knows a specific set of facts and can solve a specific set of problems. I have graded these tests before and no where during the process do I ask myself how long someone studied (because I don't know how long people studied). Very smart people can ace tests with minimal studying. Some people do poorly after studying a lot.

Retric 10y ago
The problem is final GPA means almost nothing. High School Valedictorians are an interesting population because they tend to do poorly in life. Prodigies similarly underperform vs expected results. So, when you look objectively you find the most highly paid author has zero relevant accolades. in academic terms, gave the appearance of doing what was necessary".[18] Rowling recalls doing little work, preferring to listen to The Smiths and read Dickens and Tolkien
- selestify 10y ago
  > The problem is final GPA means almost nothing. High School Valedictorians are an interesting population because they tend to do poorly in life. Prodigies similarly underperform vs expected results. Interesting, do we have any explanations for this phenomena?
  - Retric 10y ago
    Not sure how much research backs this up, but I think it's a change in what's important. A 10 year old who copies someone else brilliantly is praised, an adult doing the same thing makes minim wage. "Even prodigies who avoid burnout and resist social pressures are unlikely to make a big splash as an adult. The problem, notes giftedness researcher Ellen Winner, is that to make a major contribution in the arts, and even the sciences "you need a rebellious spirit and the type of mind that can see new things." Most prodigies, however, are acclaimed not for their innovation but "for doing something that's already been done, like playing the violin in the style of Itzhak Perlman." Only prodigies who can reinvent themselves as innovators, she says, are likely to leave a lasting mark during adulthood." https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200511/why-prodigies-fail https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200511/why-prodigie...
    - crazy2be 10y ago
      Well, I guess it all depends on what you mean by do poorly in life. High school valedictorians and child prodigies (especially the former) are disproportionately likely to hold positions of societal power. Just read the bio of any president of the IMF or the World Bank or the Federal Reserve. Essentially all of them graduate university summa cum laude or magna cum laude. Innovative scientists and people who move the world forward? Perhaps less likely to come from this group, for a variety of reasons.
      - Retric 10y ago
        Sure, when all you need for 'successes' is to be accepted credentials are useful. But, that just means you where picked it does not mean you actually succeeded at something. It's the difference between getting funding, and not just having an IPO but actually pay real dividends for significantly more than total investments.
    - goldenkey 10y ago
      That's exactly what I was thinking when I commented above. Getting the highest marks across the board in school shows more about obedience and spending all your time studying, rather than an innate intellect.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    I think the posters are making some subjective judgements that vary from the norm. There was a Boston College study awhile back that tracked a group of valedictorians. The were almost all successful and satisfied with life, but were more likely to be in professions. (Doctor, nurse, accountant, etc) In this forum, entrepreneurs are on a pedestal. It's a different personality type -- when people with entrepreneurial instincts are in an environment that doesn't support them, they tend to do poorly. My sister was a valedictorian. She's smart and creative, has a great career in a great company, is in a good marriage and has a happy family. Success by any measure that I can think of. There are people on HN who know who she is, but she is unlikely to be a billionaire tech mogul, which seems to be the standard of success in this particular story's comments!
    - Retric 10y ago
      I am not saying they are more likely to end up in prison. Rather, if you rank people and pick the top ~1/1000 and then preform about as well as the top 1/10 there is something wrong with your ranking. PS: I also had a valedictorian sister who went on to Disney and is now a solid cog in their profit machine. The trap is she never really had a need to strike out on her own. Another sister was salutatorian and became a nursery school teacher. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - Spooky23 10y ago
        If they are happy and fulfilled, they are successful. Until recently where startups have turned into a strange variant of hedge fund, many successful entrepreneurs were frankly oddball types who needed to work for themselves. One of my cousins is a prep-school/Harvard MBA/Columbia Law school type who is flipping goofy startups instead of closing factories or doing investment banking things. Startups aren't startups anymore when organization men are attracted to it.
  - goldenkey 10y ago
    I would guess that being a valedictorian is not so much a sign of being smart but of obedience. Certain subjects like history require rote memorization rather than intellect/understanding. That's why the intelligent anti-social folk tend to do good at subjects like mathematics yet could care less about subjects that are testing pure memorization. I honestly think that having As in subjects that don't matter much, shows a form of mental illness like OCD or a lack of self-identity. It may be a grim and rather crass outlook so if you have a counter-example, I'd love to hear it.
reitanqild 10y ago
One thing I really appreciated in higher education was to be graded based only on an exam where our name was unknown to the persons who graded us. I skipped a lot of boring lessons, read the books (yes, practical and visual type) and got really good grades.

by jartelt 10y ago

Retric 10y ago

The problem is final GPA means almost nothing. High School Valedictorians are an interesting population because they tend to do poorly in life. Prodigies similarly underperform vs expected results. So, when you look objectively you find the most highly paid author has zero relevant accolades. in academic terms, gave the appearance of doing what was necessary".[18] Rowling recalls doing little work, preferring to listen to The Smiths and read Dickens and Tolkien

selestify 10y ago
> The problem is final GPA means almost nothing. High School Valedictorians are an interesting population because they tend to do poorly in life. Prodigies similarly underperform vs expected results. Interesting, do we have any explanations for this phenomena?
- Retric 10y ago
  Not sure how much research backs this up, but I think it's a change in what's important. A 10 year old who copies someone else brilliantly is praised, an adult doing the same thing makes minim wage. "Even prodigies who avoid burnout and resist social pressures are unlikely to make a big splash as an adult. The problem, notes giftedness researcher Ellen Winner, is that to make a major contribution in the arts, and even the sciences "you need a rebellious spirit and the type of mind that can see new things." Most prodigies, however, are acclaimed not for their innovation but "for doing something that's already been done, like playing the violin in the style of Itzhak Perlman." Only prodigies who can reinvent themselves as innovators, she says, are likely to leave a lasting mark during adulthood." https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200511/why-prodigies-fail https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200511/why-prodigie...
  - crazy2be 10y ago
    Well, I guess it all depends on what you mean by do poorly in life. High school valedictorians and child prodigies (especially the former) are disproportionately likely to hold positions of societal power. Just read the bio of any president of the IMF or the World Bank or the Federal Reserve. Essentially all of them graduate university summa cum laude or magna cum laude. Innovative scientists and people who move the world forward? Perhaps less likely to come from this group, for a variety of reasons.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Sure, when all you need for 'successes' is to be accepted credentials are useful. But, that just means you where picked it does not mean you actually succeeded at something. It's the difference between getting funding, and not just having an IPO but actually pay real dividends for significantly more than total investments.
  - goldenkey 10y ago
    That's exactly what I was thinking when I commented above. Getting the highest marks across the board in school shows more about obedience and spending all your time studying, rather than an innate intellect.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  I think the posters are making some subjective judgements that vary from the norm. There was a Boston College study awhile back that tracked a group of valedictorians. The were almost all successful and satisfied with life, but were more likely to be in professions. (Doctor, nurse, accountant, etc) In this forum, entrepreneurs are on a pedestal. It's a different personality type -- when people with entrepreneurial instincts are in an environment that doesn't support them, they tend to do poorly. My sister was a valedictorian. She's smart and creative, has a great career in a great company, is in a good marriage and has a happy family. Success by any measure that I can think of. There are people on HN who know who she is, but she is unlikely to be a billionaire tech mogul, which seems to be the standard of success in this particular story's comments!
  - Retric 10y ago
    I am not saying they are more likely to end up in prison. Rather, if you rank people and pick the top ~1/1000 and then preform about as well as the top 1/10 there is something wrong with your ranking. PS: I also had a valedictorian sister who went on to Disney and is now a solid cog in their profit machine. The trap is she never really had a need to strike out on her own. Another sister was salutatorian and became a nursery school teacher. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      If they are happy and fulfilled, they are successful. Until recently where startups have turned into a strange variant of hedge fund, many successful entrepreneurs were frankly oddball types who needed to work for themselves. One of my cousins is a prep-school/Harvard MBA/Columbia Law school type who is flipping goofy startups instead of closing factories or doing investment banking things. Startups aren't startups anymore when organization men are attracted to it.
- goldenkey 10y ago
  I would guess that being a valedictorian is not so much a sign of being smart but of obedience. Certain subjects like history require rote memorization rather than intellect/understanding. That's why the intelligent anti-social folk tend to do good at subjects like mathematics yet could care less about subjects that are testing pure memorization. I honestly think that having As in subjects that don't matter much, shows a form of mental illness like OCD or a lack of self-identity. It may be a grim and rather crass outlook so if you have a counter-example, I'd love to hear it.

reitanqild 10y ago

One thing I really appreciated in higher education was to be graded based only on an exam where our name was unknown to the persons who graded us. I skipped a lot of boring lessons, read the books (yes, practical and visual type) and got really good grades.