5 ms·

Closed source, not end-to-end encrypted by default, end-to-end only device to device (so I can't swap seamlessly from a desktop to a mobile session). Not even t

Closed source, not end-to-end encrypted by default, end-to-end only device to device (so I can't swap seamlessly from a desktop to a mobile session). Not even the protocoll is open, so I am bound to their clients. Sadly it was the only nice alternative when the snowden stuff was published. That means those of my peers who made it away from skype/fb/whatsapp are now on telegram.

Proof 10y ago
I highly recommend you check out WIRE. Cheers
- unicornporn 10y ago
  Wire? I used it for a year with friends and family. I have never in my life experienced a buggier app on Android. My friends and family said the same about it. They seem to focus on bringing new features (like an alien voice FX feature) when they should try to fix the basics first. The worst thing that happened to me was that UI told me I was in a chat with Alice, but I soon realized I was actually chatting with Bob. So much for E2E... Now we use https://riot.im https://riot.im. I'm kind of surprised a federated solution offers a decent UX and is less buggy.
  - throwaway399 10y ago
    There is no way riot is less buggy. Try macos to macos Sierra to Yosemite voice call. It segfaults right away. Wire is buggy but generally works. The main problem with it is that metadata is collected by default.
    - unicornporn 10y ago
      Never experienced anything like that on Riot. I mostly call from Android to other Android and iOS phones though. I'd say we had a 40% chance of actually connecting a call with Wire. Suddenly there was an update to the app and calling didn't work _at all_ until the next update came (this happened more than once). A close relative finally gave up and yelled something along the lines of "who the f* uses this POS app", and I couldn't really argue. :)
      - NoGravitas 10y ago
        e2e on Riot/Matrix is in beta. I've had some experiences with someone else in a group chat only being able to read messages on one of their devices, and this is apparently not uncommon. I'm a firm believer that Matrix is the future. But right now I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that isn't an early adopter.
    - Arathorn 10y ago
      We're not aware of any crashes at all on Riot/Desktop (especially as it's an electron app, so crashes will be due to chromium bugs). Please can you make sure it's filed on https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues? thanks!
      - throwaway399 10y ago
        It was on MacOS desktop. I'll submit an issue when I get a chance to reproduce.
        throwaway399 10y ago
        Ok I updated the app and now it is not crashing! Thanks for a great product.
- anotheryou 10y ago
  The problem is the friction of making all my peers switch
  - distances 10y ago
    And one should probably switch straight to Signal anyway if an effort for that was made.
najati83 10y ago
I share your concerns but the protocol is open. https://core.telegram.org/mtproto https://core.telegram.org/mtproto All official clients are open source so you can fork them or create a new one from scratch.
- unicornporn 10y ago
  But NOBODY I know actually uses the secure chat feature — mainly because it isn't default, but also because it doesn't sync between devices.
  - dgellow 10y ago
    The lack of sync is a feature. That's what you get when you have a secure system.
    - unicornporn 10y ago
      How come https://riot.im https://riot.im (Matrix) manages to sync between devices AND have E2E, while also being federated? That's not what you get when you have a secure system, that's what you get when you design a system that can collect (and possibly monetize) the data of millions of users.
      - kiriakasis 10y ago
        I believe that making sync work with E2E bring either security issues or more burden on the user; I would like them in telegram, but I also like the "if you send this message you exactly the device it go to, not an old laptop i forgot in the office, just my phone". it is meant to be secure on a device level.
        jyrkesh 10y ago
        Yeah, you'd have to manually put your private keys onto your computer from your phone.
MichaelApproved 10y ago
> end-to-end only device to device (so I can't swap seamlessly from a desktop to a mobile session) How do you accomplish a seamless swap from desktop to a mobile session using end-to-end encryption?
- danieldk 10y ago
  iMessage has end to end encryption and supports multiple devices. Each device uses its own keypair and when a message is sent, it is sent encrypted for each of the recipient's devices. https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf
  - samat 10y ago
    The hard part is how do you manage a list of trusted devices. The thing which is really sad is that there are no end to end encrypted group chats.
    - pfg 10y ago
      > The thing which is really sad is that there are no end to end encrypted group chats. In iMessage specifically, or in general? WhatsApp/Signal do use E2E-crypto for group chats.
    - 16 10y ago
      https://riot.im https://riot.im is doing this. e2e is in beta still, but they have key list management/verification in place already.
  - sleepychu 10y ago
    How do I find out that my recipient has a new device/public key that they'd like me to encrypt with? If it's because Apple tells me so then I think can see that the end to end encryption is broken and interception is possible. Are old messages re-encrypted with the new key? This would be even worse.
    - 10y ago

Proof 10y ago

I highly recommend you check out WIRE. Cheers

unicornporn 10y ago
Wire? I used it for a year with friends and family. I have never in my life experienced a buggier app on Android. My friends and family said the same about it. They seem to focus on bringing new features (like an alien voice FX feature) when they should try to fix the basics first. The worst thing that happened to me was that UI told me I was in a chat with Alice, but I soon realized I was actually chatting with Bob. So much for E2E... Now we use https://riot.im https://riot.im. I'm kind of surprised a federated solution offers a decent UX and is less buggy.
- throwaway399 10y ago
  There is no way riot is less buggy. Try macos to macos Sierra to Yosemite voice call. It segfaults right away. Wire is buggy but generally works. The main problem with it is that metadata is collected by default.
  - unicornporn 10y ago
    Never experienced anything like that on Riot. I mostly call from Android to other Android and iOS phones though. I'd say we had a 40% chance of actually connecting a call with Wire. Suddenly there was an update to the app and calling didn't work _at all_ until the next update came (this happened more than once). A close relative finally gave up and yelled something along the lines of "who the f* uses this POS app", and I couldn't really argue. :)
    - NoGravitas 10y ago
      e2e on Riot/Matrix is in beta. I've had some experiences with someone else in a group chat only being able to read messages on one of their devices, and this is apparently not uncommon. I'm a firm believer that Matrix is the future. But right now I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that isn't an early adopter.
  - Arathorn 10y ago
    We're not aware of any crashes at all on Riot/Desktop (especially as it's an electron app, so crashes will be due to chromium bugs). Please can you make sure it's filed on https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues? thanks!
    - throwaway399 10y ago
      It was on MacOS desktop. I'll submit an issue when I get a chance to reproduce.
      - throwaway399 10y ago
        Ok I updated the app and now it is not crashing! Thanks for a great product.
anotheryou 10y ago
The problem is the friction of making all my peers switch
- distances 10y ago
  And one should probably switch straight to Signal anyway if an effort for that was made.

najati83 10y ago

I share your concerns but the protocol is open. https://core.telegram.org/mtproto https://core.telegram.org/mtproto All official clients are open source so you can fork them or create a new one from scratch.

unicornporn 10y ago
But NOBODY I know actually uses the secure chat feature — mainly because it isn't default, but also because it doesn't sync between devices.
- dgellow 10y ago
  The lack of sync is a feature. That's what you get when you have a secure system.
  - unicornporn 10y ago
    How come https://riot.im https://riot.im (Matrix) manages to sync between devices AND have E2E, while also being federated? That's not what you get when you have a secure system, that's what you get when you design a system that can collect (and possibly monetize) the data of millions of users.
    - kiriakasis 10y ago
      I believe that making sync work with E2E bring either security issues or more burden on the user; I would like them in telegram, but I also like the "if you send this message you exactly the device it go to, not an old laptop i forgot in the office, just my phone". it is meant to be secure on a device level.
      - jyrkesh 10y ago
        Yeah, you'd have to manually put your private keys onto your computer from your phone.

MichaelApproved 10y ago

> end-to-end only device to device (so I can't swap seamlessly from a desktop to a mobile session) How do you accomplish a seamless swap from desktop to a mobile session using end-to-end encryption?

danieldk 10y ago
iMessage has end to end encryption and supports multiple devices. Each device uses its own keypair and when a message is sent, it is sent encrypted for each of the recipient's devices. https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf
- samat 10y ago
  The hard part is how do you manage a list of trusted devices. The thing which is really sad is that there are no end to end encrypted group chats.
  - pfg 10y ago
    > The thing which is really sad is that there are no end to end encrypted group chats. In iMessage specifically, or in general? WhatsApp/Signal do use E2E-crypto for group chats.
  - 16 10y ago
    https://riot.im https://riot.im is doing this. e2e is in beta still, but they have key list management/verification in place already.
- sleepychu 10y ago
  How do I find out that my recipient has a new device/public key that they'd like me to encrypt with? If it's because Apple tells me so then I think can see that the end to end encryption is broken and interception is possible. Are old messages re-encrypted with the new key? This would be even worse.
  - 10y ago