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> that's communism. I think you're confused about communism. What you're talking about seems more about soviet russia and other countries that run/ran an autho

by emt02 10y ago

> that's communism. I think you're confused about communism. What you're talking about seems more about soviet russia and other countries that run/ran an authoritarian state-capitalism system (often calling it communism). However, communism has nothing to do with enforcing people to work under a threat of death, rather the contrary.

monort 10y ago
From Communist Manifesto: 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Unsurprisingly this leads to labor camps in every communist government.
- emt02 10y ago
  According to the communist manifesto, the point you mention should be put into effect during the transitory phase from capitalism to communism, where the State gathers the power in order to then build a class-less, state-less society. That is just a mean to reach the final goal, and it does not mention labor camps or anything like that. I'm curious on which communist government are you talking about, since pretty much all the "communist" revolutions so far did not actually implement communism but state capitalism (as Lenin himself said), except for some libertarian communist revolutions (e.g. revolutionary Catalogna, Ukraine) that were then defeated militarily. On one thing I agree with you though, which is that putting all the power into the state is not a good way to achieve communism, as it is dangerous and it pretty much never worked so far.
marknutter 10y ago
No true communism.
rdtsc 10y ago
I am not confused I lived in a communist country.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  communism as an ideal seems impossible to implement in any way besides the authoritarian state-capitalism way that it has been implemented. that accomplishes the objectives of having a command economy with full employment (even if its monstrously inefficient), but it certainly doesn't come close to creating a just political order where the policies serve the people instead of the owners of the means of production (which is the state). the Mondragon Corporation[1] is one of the few interesting experiments with a Communism-inspired system that does not immediately degenerate into authoritarian state-capitalism. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
  - laughingman2 10y ago
    >communism as an ideal seems impossible to implement in any way besides the authoritarian state-capitalism way that it has been implemented. >the Mondragon Corporation[1] is one of the few interesting experiments with a Communism-inspired system that does not immediately degenerate into authoritarian state-capitalism. So there is no logical inconsistency in what you believe? Mondragon Corporation is a worker syndicate , which is not a "communism inspired system", but a system aspiring for communism. If worker ownership can work in Mondragon, then saying that "communism is impossible without authoritarianism" is flawed.

by emt02 10y ago

monort 10y ago

From Communist Manifesto: 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Unsurprisingly this leads to labor camps in every communist government.

emt02 10y ago
According to the communist manifesto, the point you mention should be put into effect during the transitory phase from capitalism to communism, where the State gathers the power in order to then build a class-less, state-less society. That is just a mean to reach the final goal, and it does not mention labor camps or anything like that. I'm curious on which communist government are you talking about, since pretty much all the "communist" revolutions so far did not actually implement communism but state capitalism (as Lenin himself said), except for some libertarian communist revolutions (e.g. revolutionary Catalogna, Ukraine) that were then defeated militarily. On one thing I agree with you though, which is that putting all the power into the state is not a good way to achieve communism, as it is dangerous and it pretty much never worked so far.

marknutter 10y ago

No true communism.

rdtsc 10y ago

I am not confused I lived in a communist country.

metaphorm 10y ago
communism as an ideal seems impossible to implement in any way besides the authoritarian state-capitalism way that it has been implemented. that accomplishes the objectives of having a command economy with full employment (even if its monstrously inefficient), but it certainly doesn't come close to creating a just political order where the policies serve the people instead of the owners of the means of production (which is the state). the Mondragon Corporation[1] is one of the few interesting experiments with a Communism-inspired system that does not immediately degenerate into authoritarian state-capitalism. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
- laughingman2 10y ago
  >communism as an ideal seems impossible to implement in any way besides the authoritarian state-capitalism way that it has been implemented. >the Mondragon Corporation[1] is one of the few interesting experiments with a Communism-inspired system that does not immediately degenerate into authoritarian state-capitalism. So there is no logical inconsistency in what you believe? Mondragon Corporation is a worker syndicate , which is not a "communism inspired system", but a system aspiring for communism. If worker ownership can work in Mondragon, then saying that "communism is impossible without authoritarianism" is flawed.