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Many, many years ago there were already FSFE presentations by lawyers who encouraged everyone to prefer AGPL to GPL, because in most applications this is closer

by vog 10y ago

Many, many years ago there were already FSFE presentations by lawyers who encouraged everyone to prefer AGPL to GPL, because in most applications this is closer to what you actually want. - GPL wants to care about the users, but actually cares only about those who install the software on their computer. Back then, these groups were identical, but in the time of remote applications (web apps, services, etc.) this means: The owner of the server, not the end user, receives the rights granted by GPL. - AGPL actually does care about the users, no matter how they interact with your application. The rights given by the AGPL are granted to everybody down the chain. Of course, this line of thinking only applies if you want a strong copyleft license. If you want non-copyleft, e.g. for very small projects, just stick with the ISC license (which is a more modern and slightly shorter version of MIT license).

adrianN 10y ago
The FSF recommends Apache 2.0 for small projects where the hassle of free software is not worth it.
- aplaice 10y ago
  Sorry to be nit-picky, but software released under the Apache 2.0 _is_ also free/libre software. Free software ≠ copylefted software (the latter is, approximately, a subset of the former). In most cases (vast majority?), Open Source software (as defined by the OSI) is also Free (as defined by the FSF).
  - pksadiq 10y ago
    > In most cases (vast majority?), Open Source software (as defined by the OSI) is also Free (as defined by the FSF). It is a bit tricky here. Based on the situation, the same software can be some times be open source AND free software, or open source only (ie, not free software). Eg: Linux kernel. When it is run on your computer, usually it is mostly free-software (linux-libre would be fully free). When it is run on your router, they (vendor) shall give you the source code, but may not allow you to modify it. This is violation of freedom 1 (The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish). Then it won't be a free software, but just open source. You can't even confirm whether the source code they gave corresponds to the binary run in the router.
    - cat199 10y ago
      > When it is run on your router, they (vendor) shall give you the source code, but may not allow you to modify it. not at all true.. not being able to easily modify the binaries on your router is not the same as modifying the code which they distributed to you.. it is a license for the source code - not the runtime application of the source code.
      - pksadiq 10y ago
        > not at all true.. not being able to easily modify the binaries on your router is not the same as modifying the code which they distributed to you.. > it is a license for the source code - not the runtime application of the source code. That is a fundamental difference between "open source" and "free software". See https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html, specifically the explanation of freedom 1.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    You're right of course. I should have said "the hassle of copyleft".
    - clishem 10y ago
      That is not what the FSF writes.
      - aplaice 10y ago
        According to https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-recommendations.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-recommendations.html : > It is not worth the trouble to use copyleft for most small programs. and they recommend Apache 2.0. What are you disagreeing with?
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        clishem 10y ago
        Thanks for the reference, I missed that section! 300 lines, so mostly scripts that this recommendation applies to. That's not 'small projects' if you ask me.
  - ramshorns 10y ago
    Rare exceptions include CC0 and WTFPL, which are not OSI-approved and thus are free software licenses but maybe not open source licenses, and Artistic 1.0, which is not FSF-approved and thus open source but not free software.
- ams6110 10y ago
  The "wall of legalese" that is the Apache 2.0 license does not inspire confidence in me. I feel like I would need a law degree to understand it. I like the MIT/BSD licenses. Short, clear, understandable.
  - pksadiq 10y ago
    > I like the MIT/BSD licenses. Short, clear, understandable. We might think short lines are clear and understandable and the best. But that is just for us. When it comes to law(yers), it might be interpreted in extremely insane ways. So the terms has to be explicit, and this is why GPL/Apache have very long lines, stating each detail explicitly. Have you ever seen any serious EULA for any proprietary software (or service) short and clear?
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    The "wall of legalese" is what ensures that you are protected from lawsuits. MIT/BSD licenses are shorter because they are more vague. That vagueness means they are easier to read, but harder to understand the implications of.

by vog 10y ago

adrianN 10y ago

The FSF recommends Apache 2.0 for small projects where the hassle of free software is not worth it.

aplaice 10y ago
Sorry to be nit-picky, but software released under the Apache 2.0 _is_ also free/libre software. Free software ≠ copylefted software (the latter is, approximately, a subset of the former). In most cases (vast majority?), Open Source software (as defined by the OSI) is also Free (as defined by the FSF).
- pksadiq 10y ago
  > In most cases (vast majority?), Open Source software (as defined by the OSI) is also Free (as defined by the FSF). It is a bit tricky here. Based on the situation, the same software can be some times be open source AND free software, or open source only (ie, not free software). Eg: Linux kernel. When it is run on your computer, usually it is mostly free-software (linux-libre would be fully free). When it is run on your router, they (vendor) shall give you the source code, but may not allow you to modify it. This is violation of freedom 1 (The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish). Then it won't be a free software, but just open source. You can't even confirm whether the source code they gave corresponds to the binary run in the router.
  - cat199 10y ago
    > When it is run on your router, they (vendor) shall give you the source code, but may not allow you to modify it. not at all true.. not being able to easily modify the binaries on your router is not the same as modifying the code which they distributed to you.. it is a license for the source code - not the runtime application of the source code.
    - pksadiq 10y ago
      > not at all true.. not being able to easily modify the binaries on your router is not the same as modifying the code which they distributed to you.. > it is a license for the source code - not the runtime application of the source code. That is a fundamental difference between "open source" and "free software". See https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html, specifically the explanation of freedom 1.
- adrianN 10y ago
  You're right of course. I should have said "the hassle of copyleft".
  - clishem 10y ago
    That is not what the FSF writes.
    - aplaice 10y ago
      According to https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-recommendations.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-recommendations.html : > It is not worth the trouble to use copyleft for most small programs. and they recommend Apache 2.0. What are you disagreeing with?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - clishem 10y ago
        Thanks for the reference, I missed that section! 300 lines, so mostly scripts that this recommendation applies to. That's not 'small projects' if you ask me.
- ramshorns 10y ago
  Rare exceptions include CC0 and WTFPL, which are not OSI-approved and thus are free software licenses but maybe not open source licenses, and Artistic 1.0, which is not FSF-approved and thus open source but not free software.
ams6110 10y ago
The "wall of legalese" that is the Apache 2.0 license does not inspire confidence in me. I feel like I would need a law degree to understand it. I like the MIT/BSD licenses. Short, clear, understandable.
- pksadiq 10y ago
  > I like the MIT/BSD licenses. Short, clear, understandable. We might think short lines are clear and understandable and the best. But that is just for us. When it comes to law(yers), it might be interpreted in extremely insane ways. So the terms has to be explicit, and this is why GPL/Apache have very long lines, stating each detail explicitly. Have you ever seen any serious EULA for any proprietary software (or service) short and clear?
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  The "wall of legalese" is what ensures that you are protected from lawsuits. MIT/BSD licenses are shorter because they are more vague. That vagueness means they are easier to read, but harder to understand the implications of.