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QQ: Given this, how _is_ it possible to change as a person? For example, you read these rare stories of overweight guys really turning their lives around and be

QQ: Given this, how _is_ it possible to change as a person? For example, you read these rare stories of overweight guys really turning their lives around and becoming all out studs. How do they do something like that?

georgieporgie 16y ago
Obesity may directly be the result of physical or psychological problem. Even worse, issues like these can create a feedback loop. You feel worse, so you eat more, so you feel worse, so you eat more. Problems like this may be obvious to outsiders, but completely invisible to the person experiencing it. By learning to recognize your situation and substitute behaviors to form new habits, you can change what you are without necessarily changing who you are.
dkarl 16y ago
Self-control only applies to situations where your rational mind overrules irrational impulses. If eating righting and exercising requires self-control, it is because your mind has a deep conviction that it's actually best for you to eat a lot and not exercise. You've figured out the right strategy, but your faith in it is as shallow as your rational mind. At deeper levels, you're still deluded. However, you can deepen your convictions through carefully examined and honestly felt experience. For example, through regular exercise, you can learn to associate exercise with the good feelings and good results it produces. (It's interesting how neatly this meshes with the Buddhist belief that harmful behavior arises from delusion, and that delusion is maintained not only by ignorance but by compulsive doubt of what one rationally knows to be true.) Unfortunately, your false beliefs (exercise is pointless, exercise will make me feel bad, ordering a pizza will make me feel good, I'm not the kind of quality person who exercises and eats right anyway) start to come back when you stop exercising and eating right. I don't believe you can ever completely eradicate them. An addict is always an addict. For some reason, early-imprinted delusions are always more comfortable than our learned wisdom, and we tend to revert to them under stress. So the fight is never-ending, though happily it demands less self-discipline as time passes.
- _debug_ 16y ago
  Very insightful, thanks!
- mattmanser 16y ago
  Backed up by anything? As this seems a little like wishful thinking. From what I've read, generally speaking weightloss from dieting/exercise is usually 1.5-2 stones then you put back on .5 stone. Some people then revert back to original weight as they adopt their previous lifestyle. It's got little to do with beliefs and delusions, far more to do with treating losing weight as a temporary thing then reverting to a previous lifestyle, thinking all I have to do is eat a little less, drink a little less than I did once I'm x stone. They end the diet with 'and now I shall be good because I'm happy' without actually intending to change their original lifestyle. They never intended to keep up the diet indefinitely. So they never had a belief that a diet was how they should live the rest of their life, but made no serious attempt to change their lifestyle. That's my impression of it anyway, having done this once to myself and now pondering on how I'm back to my original weight. On a related note, I've certainly read of people saying that you can build up periods of concentration (e.g. in this instance it was writing), start slow with a couple of hours and build up every day and eventually you can work yourself up to long periods of time of concentration without noticing it. This is perhaps a habit changing method. I don't know, I'm no expert, that's just my best guess.
  - dkarl 16y ago
    Backed up with my own weight loss and fitness. Anyone who thinks dieting is a temporary state is doomed; it's easy to categorize that as a delusion. Your mind has a natural anxiety about breaking habits (it's rather superstitious) and also a natural aversion to putting effort into anything. That's why it's so easy to do something when you have enthusiasm for it and so hard once the enthusiasm wears off: enthusiasm is essentially excitement based on the belief that something will generate positive results. I don't know why enthusiasm seems to peak quickly and then die off, but I treat it as an opportunity to form new habits and to educate myself through experiences that would be difficult to bring about otherwise because of my natural laziness. Most long-lasting changes in my life are the residual effects of waves of enthusiasm that carried me for a while and then subsided. I've never been able to make changes strictly incrementally; it's always three steps forward and one step back (which I guess is that .5 stone you're talking about.)
jules 16y ago
It's easy. Run 10km each day directly before dinner for 2 weeks with someone else. Perhaps 10km is too much, but set a fixed distance up front (definitely not less than 5km). The advantages are: 1) Doing something every day is easier. This eliminates the decision "will I run today?". Deciding yes requires more self control than doing it every day by default, because the choice has already been made. 2) Doing it for 2 weeks is low commitment, and sets a goal. 3) Doing it with someone else gives you outside pressure. This is good because you don't have to pressure yourself. 4) Running before dinner is good for two reasons. First you really don't want to run after you've eaten (hurts). Second, you don't have to remember it: your body will remind you (hunger: you want to eat so better get running). Contrast this with: To lose weight I'm going to start running. This is almost certainly going to fail. Now you have ask yourself the question "will I go running now?" at some point during the day. If this happens what will you tell yourself? - I'm busy now; I will run later this day. - My life is long; I will run tomorrow. - The weather is bad now. - I don't feel good today. - During the run at 2km: I'm tired so I'm going to stop now. Contrast this with: It's an hour before dinner. You don't even have to ask yourself whether you want to go running, because you already decided that you will. What are the excuses you can make up? - You're not busy because you planned to run. - You're only going to run for 2 weeks, you can do that. - You don't want to lose the 2 week goal or the 3 days that you've been running already will have been for nothing. - The other guy is ringing your doorbell/waiting for you, you can't say no to him. - You don't stop after 2km because you said 10km. And the other guy is running next to you. Eliminate decisions (do it every day, and 10km). Set a goal (2 weeks). Get pressure from other people so that you don't have to use up your own self control. I think the key is not that you have to have good self control. The key is to avoid using it, and if you do have to use it try to make the right decision more preferable. Oh, and two things specific to running/losing weight: you have a lower appetite after running (at least I do), and if you run you have another reason not to eat sweets/cookies/etc: you don't want to undo the hard work!
- akv 16y ago
  Good points. But it is harder to make yourself not do something, rather than to do something. You could set a daily time or long goal for something that you want to do, but not doing something requires constant vigil. Thats why it can be pretty exhausting.
dcx 16y ago
To generalise and confirm the other posters' answers - build yourself structure, and scale up gradually. Set small, visible, non-negotiable targets. It takes 10,000 hours to become deeply skilled at something - I try to keep that order of magnitude in mind when thinking about trying to make changes; we're all experts at living under our current way of life!

georgieporgie 16y ago

Obesity may directly be the result of physical or psychological problem. Even worse, issues like these can create a feedback loop. You feel worse, so you eat more, so you feel worse, so you eat more. Problems like this may be obvious to outsiders, but completely invisible to the person experiencing it. By learning to recognize your situation and substitute behaviors to form new habits, you can change what you are without necessarily changing who you are.

dkarl 16y ago

Self-control only applies to situations where your rational mind overrules irrational impulses. If eating righting and exercising requires self-control, it is because your mind has a deep conviction that it's actually best for you to eat a lot and not exercise. You've figured out the right strategy, but your faith in it is as shallow as your rational mind. At deeper levels, you're still deluded. However, you can deepen your convictions through carefully examined and honestly felt experience. For example, through regular exercise, you can learn to associate exercise with the good feelings and good results it produces. (It's interesting how neatly this meshes with the Buddhist belief that harmful behavior arises from delusion, and that delusion is maintained not only by ignorance but by compulsive doubt of what one rationally knows to be true.) Unfortunately, your false beliefs (exercise is pointless, exercise will make me feel bad, ordering a pizza will make me feel good, I'm not the kind of quality person who exercises and eats right anyway) start to come back when you stop exercising and eating right. I don't believe you can ever completely eradicate them. An addict is always an addict. For some reason, early-imprinted delusions are always more comfortable than our learned wisdom, and we tend to revert to them under stress. So the fight is never-ending, though happily it demands less self-discipline as time passes.

_debug_ 16y ago
Very insightful, thanks!
mattmanser 16y ago
Backed up by anything? As this seems a little like wishful thinking. From what I've read, generally speaking weightloss from dieting/exercise is usually 1.5-2 stones then you put back on .5 stone. Some people then revert back to original weight as they adopt their previous lifestyle. It's got little to do with beliefs and delusions, far more to do with treating losing weight as a temporary thing then reverting to a previous lifestyle, thinking all I have to do is eat a little less, drink a little less than I did once I'm x stone. They end the diet with 'and now I shall be good because I'm happy' without actually intending to change their original lifestyle. They never intended to keep up the diet indefinitely. So they never had a belief that a diet was how they should live the rest of their life, but made no serious attempt to change their lifestyle. That's my impression of it anyway, having done this once to myself and now pondering on how I'm back to my original weight. On a related note, I've certainly read of people saying that you can build up periods of concentration (e.g. in this instance it was writing), start slow with a couple of hours and build up every day and eventually you can work yourself up to long periods of time of concentration without noticing it. This is perhaps a habit changing method. I don't know, I'm no expert, that's just my best guess.
- dkarl 16y ago
  Backed up with my own weight loss and fitness. Anyone who thinks dieting is a temporary state is doomed; it's easy to categorize that as a delusion. Your mind has a natural anxiety about breaking habits (it's rather superstitious) and also a natural aversion to putting effort into anything. That's why it's so easy to do something when you have enthusiasm for it and so hard once the enthusiasm wears off: enthusiasm is essentially excitement based on the belief that something will generate positive results. I don't know why enthusiasm seems to peak quickly and then die off, but I treat it as an opportunity to form new habits and to educate myself through experiences that would be difficult to bring about otherwise because of my natural laziness. Most long-lasting changes in my life are the residual effects of waves of enthusiasm that carried me for a while and then subsided. I've never been able to make changes strictly incrementally; it's always three steps forward and one step back (which I guess is that .5 stone you're talking about.)

jules 16y ago

It's easy. Run 10km each day directly before dinner for 2 weeks with someone else. Perhaps 10km is too much, but set a fixed distance up front (definitely not less than 5km). The advantages are: 1) Doing something every day is easier. This eliminates the decision "will I run today?". Deciding yes requires more self control than doing it every day by default, because the choice has already been made. 2) Doing it for 2 weeks is low commitment, and sets a goal. 3) Doing it with someone else gives you outside pressure. This is good because you don't have to pressure yourself. 4) Running before dinner is good for two reasons. First you really don't want to run after you've eaten (hurts). Second, you don't have to remember it: your body will remind you (hunger: you want to eat so better get running). Contrast this with: To lose weight I'm going to start running. This is almost certainly going to fail. Now you have ask yourself the question "will I go running now?" at some point during the day. If this happens what will you tell yourself? - I'm busy now; I will run later this day. - My life is long; I will run tomorrow. - The weather is bad now. - I don't feel good today. - During the run at 2km: I'm tired so I'm going to stop now. Contrast this with: It's an hour before dinner. You don't even have to ask yourself whether you want to go running, because you already decided that you will. What are the excuses you can make up? - You're not busy because you planned to run. - You're only going to run for 2 weeks, you can do that. - You don't want to lose the 2 week goal or the 3 days that you've been running already will have been for nothing. - The other guy is ringing your doorbell/waiting for you, you can't say no to him. - You don't stop after 2km because you said 10km. And the other guy is running next to you. Eliminate decisions (do it every day, and 10km). Set a goal (2 weeks). Get pressure from other people so that you don't have to use up your own self control. I think the key is not that you have to have good self control. The key is to avoid using it, and if you do have to use it try to make the right decision more preferable. Oh, and two things specific to running/losing weight: you have a lower appetite after running (at least I do), and if you run you have another reason not to eat sweets/cookies/etc: you don't want to undo the hard work!

akv 16y ago
Good points. But it is harder to make yourself not do something, rather than to do something. You could set a daily time or long goal for something that you want to do, but not doing something requires constant vigil. Thats why it can be pretty exhausting.

dcx 16y ago

To generalise and confirm the other posters' answers - build yourself structure, and scale up gradually. Set small, visible, non-negotiable targets. It takes 10,000 hours to become deeply skilled at something - I try to keep that order of magnitude in mind when thinking about trying to make changes; we're all experts at living under our current way of life!