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Property is violence. If I try to take something that "isn't my property", the state will intervene with violence (e.g. forced imprisonment, etc.) on behalf of

Property is violence. If I try to take something that "isn't my property", the state will intervene with violence (e.g. forced imprisonment, etc.) on behalf of the person deemed to be the "lawful owner".

ImSkeptical 10y ago
I haven't seen opinion polls, but I doubt that's a widely held view. Why should people conform to your unusual position on property, as opposed to the mainstream one? Personally, I quite like owning things that are mine. The cost, that other people can own things that are theirs and not mine, seems well worth it.
- mhermher 10y ago
  I'm not making a moral point. And it's not an opinion, nothing in my explanation is outside of trivially observed reality. I'm just trying to dispel the idea that capitalism (as we experience it, or otherwise) isn't maintained through violence. It very well is more pleasant for most people than feudalism, but they both perpetuate themselves through violence.
- namlem 10y ago
  Parent comment didn't lay forth a good argument, but I think there is something to be said for the societal cost of people owning investment capital. However, there is also something to be said for the benefit of incentives. It's important to balance these factors, for example by making capital gains tax progressive and raising the rate for high earners.
- zer0tonin 10y ago
  >Why should people conform to your unusual position on property, as opposed to the mainstream one? That's a nice fallacy you've got here, and that would imply that his opinion is actually uncommon around people who have studied the subject (spoiler : it's not). >Personally, I quite like owning things that are mine. Possession and property are not the same thing.
  - ImSkeptical 10y ago
    If you interpret "property is violence" to mean that property is maintained by organizations willing to use violence - I.e. That something is "my property" because I can appeal to a police system who will help me defend, retain, or regain possession of it, then that's obviously true. I expect nobody disagrees with that. If that is the interpretation you're trying to defend then I have no objection beyond an arched eyebrow at something trivial being obfuscated to appear objectionable. The interpretation I made, and challenged, is that property is violence. I.e. Owning things is violent towards other people.
    - zer0tonin 10y ago
      Owning thing isn't violent but property is about a lot more than "owning things".
- metaphorm 10y ago
  Property is a system for regulating (hopefully reducing) violence). I'm quite sure that is a widely held view.
no-state-needed 10y ago
I'm curious to understand how you've decided that your desire to take someone else's property makes it a trivial truth that only violence prevents you from having the natural right to take it.
- mhermher 10y ago
  I never suggested such a thing. Natural rights don't exist. That's just something some people make up. So what prevents me from taking someone else's stuff, if I really wanted it?
  - gambiting 10y ago
    The same thing that prevents you from killing people that you really don't like, I guess? I assume you don't do it because you are at least a half-decent human being, and not because of the threat of violence. Same with taking property.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  discredited rhetorical technique. you can do better.
malandrew 10y ago
Can you propose any alternative system that doesn't involve the concept of property that manages to avoid violence? Broadly speaking, demand is unlimited and supply is limited. With these two as a given, violence is essentially inevitable. Property near as I can tell, is a cultural tool that minimizes violence and maximizes supply. Only when there is abundance outstripping demand of a population, is violence avoidable. A couple million people spread across North and South America 600 people enjoyed abundance, relatively speaking. 7 billion people spread across 7 continents is an entirely different scenario, and one where violence is unavoidable.
- mhermher 10y ago
  Yeah, I generally agree with everything you've said. And no, I can't propose any alternative system with those requirements. I'm not even sure if it's possible by definition.
- max_ 10y ago
  Smart Contracts? https://www.ethereum.org/ https://www.ethereum.org/
- metaphorm 10y ago
  Violence is inherent to living in our civilized, city-building way of life. That doesn't mean that property isn't a system for regulating violence. It is. We allow the state to monopolize the right to violence and entrust the state with the responsibility of settling property disputes in a legal framework so that we don't immediately resort to violence. An alternative system that avoids violence is not living the way we live. That ship sailed tens of thousands of years ago though. Too late now. In our current state we just have violence and systems for regulating it.

ImSkeptical 10y ago

I haven't seen opinion polls, but I doubt that's a widely held view. Why should people conform to your unusual position on property, as opposed to the mainstream one? Personally, I quite like owning things that are mine. The cost, that other people can own things that are theirs and not mine, seems well worth it.

mhermher 10y ago
I'm not making a moral point. And it's not an opinion, nothing in my explanation is outside of trivially observed reality. I'm just trying to dispel the idea that capitalism (as we experience it, or otherwise) isn't maintained through violence. It very well is more pleasant for most people than feudalism, but they both perpetuate themselves through violence.
namlem 10y ago
Parent comment didn't lay forth a good argument, but I think there is something to be said for the societal cost of people owning investment capital. However, there is also something to be said for the benefit of incentives. It's important to balance these factors, for example by making capital gains tax progressive and raising the rate for high earners.
zer0tonin 10y ago
>Why should people conform to your unusual position on property, as opposed to the mainstream one? That's a nice fallacy you've got here, and that would imply that his opinion is actually uncommon around people who have studied the subject (spoiler : it's not). >Personally, I quite like owning things that are mine. Possession and property are not the same thing.
- ImSkeptical 10y ago
  If you interpret "property is violence" to mean that property is maintained by organizations willing to use violence - I.e. That something is "my property" because I can appeal to a police system who will help me defend, retain, or regain possession of it, then that's obviously true. I expect nobody disagrees with that. If that is the interpretation you're trying to defend then I have no objection beyond an arched eyebrow at something trivial being obfuscated to appear objectionable. The interpretation I made, and challenged, is that property is violence. I.e. Owning things is violent towards other people.
  - zer0tonin 10y ago
    Owning thing isn't violent but property is about a lot more than "owning things".
metaphorm 10y ago
Property is a system for regulating (hopefully reducing) violence). I'm quite sure that is a widely held view.

no-state-needed 10y ago

I'm curious to understand how you've decided that your desire to take someone else's property makes it a trivial truth that only violence prevents you from having the natural right to take it.

mhermher 10y ago
I never suggested such a thing. Natural rights don't exist. That's just something some people make up. So what prevents me from taking someone else's stuff, if I really wanted it?
- gambiting 10y ago
  The same thing that prevents you from killing people that you really don't like, I guess? I assume you don't do it because you are at least a half-decent human being, and not because of the threat of violence. Same with taking property.
metaphorm 10y ago
discredited rhetorical technique. you can do better.

malandrew 10y ago

Can you propose any alternative system that doesn't involve the concept of property that manages to avoid violence? Broadly speaking, demand is unlimited and supply is limited. With these two as a given, violence is essentially inevitable. Property near as I can tell, is a cultural tool that minimizes violence and maximizes supply. Only when there is abundance outstripping demand of a population, is violence avoidable. A couple million people spread across North and South America 600 people enjoyed abundance, relatively speaking. 7 billion people spread across 7 continents is an entirely different scenario, and one where violence is unavoidable.

mhermher 10y ago
Yeah, I generally agree with everything you've said. And no, I can't propose any alternative system with those requirements. I'm not even sure if it's possible by definition.
max_ 10y ago
Smart Contracts? https://www.ethereum.org/ https://www.ethereum.org/
metaphorm 10y ago
Violence is inherent to living in our civilized, city-building way of life. That doesn't mean that property isn't a system for regulating violence. It is. We allow the state to monopolize the right to violence and entrust the state with the responsibility of settling property disputes in a legal framework so that we don't immediately resort to violence. An alternative system that avoids violence is not living the way we live. That ship sailed tens of thousands of years ago though. Too late now. In our current state we just have violence and systems for regulating it.