6 ms·

@Semiapies: A: if the vehicle can accelerate under the power of the wind to several multiples of the windspeed, what would suddenly make it slow down? Are you

@Semiapies: A: if the vehicle can accelerate under the power of the wind to several multiples of the windspeed, what would suddenly make it slow down? Are you suspecting stored energy is being used somehow? B: How long of a run would convince you?

Semiapies 16y ago
A) It is admittedly using stored energy - the propellers are spun by the wheels, which are spinning due to the vehicle's forward motion. I suspect that they may have come up with a clever trick to manage a burst of speed before slowing down back below the speed of the wind. The treadmill demo video shows the model speeding up, then slowing down. B) I'm not sure how long the temporary burst of speed would last on a larger model; I'd prefer an engineer coming up with that. My WAG would have that period be rather less than an hour. I'm reminded of perpetual motion scams, especially by someone creating a login to start defending them and demanding what would convince someone. Trying to put skeptics on the defensive and trying to force them to disprove the remarkable claim put forth is a classic shtick. And I think the perpetual motion bit is fair - if we take the treadmill video on its face, this is a vehicle that, in still air, would go uphill under its own lack of power - and even accelerate for a while after an initial push. This has nothing to do with apparent wind velocity.
- ThinAirDesigns 16y ago
  @Semiapies: >It is admittedly using stored energy - the propellers are spun by the wheels, which are spinning due to the vehicle's forward motion. I'm sorry, but by that logic your car is also "admittedly using stored energy" to accelerate (as the wheels and other parts are turning due to the vehicles forward motion) and we know this isn't the case. Just because there exists stored energy in a system, doesn't mean that this stored energy is being used and in fact, as the vehicle accelerates, more energy is stored rather than energy being used. In the case of this vehicle, it can't be using the stored energy in the propeller without it turning progressively slower and the videos show the propeller simply continuing to spin faster as the vehicle accelerates. The gearing between the prop and the wheels is fixed ... there's no way to slow the prop down and speed the wheels up -- that would require a variable ratio between the two. Semiapies: <<Trying to put skeptics on the defensive and trying to force them to disprove the remarkable claim put forth is a classic shtick. I don't recall attempting to force you to disprove anything. I simply asked period of time would convince you. You can call it "shtick" if you like -- I call it attempting to learn your position.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    "it can't be using the stored energy in the propeller" Note that I didn't say it was. Sorry to get you off-script. As claimed by the builders, the propeller is powered by the wheels. Assuming no other stored energy source, the stored energy is the motion of the vehicle after it's been started off by the wind. I'm not clear how they do it, but going from the treadmill video, I suspect they manage a temporary burst of speed followed by a slowdown. "I don't recall attempting to force you to disprove anything" You rushed in to try to get a layman to give explicit parameters for disproving it. That's a common tactic, usually followed by assurances that this system can totally do that, and we'll see video of it doing exactly that Real Soon Now. At this point, I'm waiting for the normal course of events: the other shoe will drop months from now and hardly make a blip on the blogs and other venues currently hyping this story.
    - ThinAirDesigns 16y ago
      Me: "it can't be using the stored energy in the propeller" You: "Note that I didn't say it was. Sorry to get you off-script." Wow -- you make a clear claim and then two posts later are denying you even said it. I'll refresh your memory: This is you claiming that the vehicle uses stored energy: "It is admittedly using stored energy - the propellers are spun by the wheels," You: "You rushed in to try to get a layman to give explicit parameters for disproving it." Nope -- I merely asked what would convince you -- big difference.
      - Semiapies 16y ago
        Two posts? You're contradicting yourself within your single post, right here. I never said the energy was stored in the propeller. You even just quoted me saying exactly the opposite, twice! Real, working projects don't have shills - sorry, evangelists - running around here and other forums trying to shout down people who are dubious about the very physical possibility of what they've made. They don't have to - they have working machines!
        ThinAirDesigns 16y ago
- camccann 16y ago
  "...this is a vehicle that, in still air, would go uphill under its own lack of power..." No, it wouldn't. The vehicle extracts energy from the velocity difference between the air and the ground, which it converts into forward motion. This is essentially the same mechanism used by sailboats tacking against the wind, and despite being counterintuitive at first is well-established. The speed is limited only by gearing and mechanical efficiency--an idealized device could accelerate arbitrarily. While the Wired link doesn't explain how the device works, the same idea has made the rounds on the internet many times before; links to detailed descriptions were already posted in the comments here, which I assume you didn't bother to read before implying that this is a scam? "Trying to put skeptics on the defensive" Sticking with a knee-jerk reaction against something while ignoring further information that supports it gives "skeptics" a bad name.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    "This is essentially the same mechanism used by sailboats tacking against the wind, and despite being counterintuitive at first is well-established." Tacking is different from this. This is using ground-speed to generate thrust, as even the shills acknowledge. "The speed is limited only by gearing and mechanical efficiency--an idealized device could accelerate arbitrarily." Arbitrary magic acceleration inside an atmosphere should be your first clue that something's extremely wrong here. And yes, I looked at the various forum links that turned up, which made very clear the very typical full-court astroturf press going on (like the argument above with someone who registered only to argue with unbelievers in this thread). You might take a look. "Sticking with a knee-jerk reaction against something while ignoring further information that supports it gives "skeptics" a bad name." Skeptics get a bad name because they don't join in the squee. All I ask is that you look at the further information. Check back on this story in months and years and see whether it pans out.
    - camccann 16y ago
      Arbitrary magic acceleration ...in other words, either you didn't actually read the explanations or you didn't understand them. The energy is being extracted from a velocity difference between two media. And no, tacking works on exactly the same principles in order to sail upwind. Some manner of mechanical linkage decelerates one or both media with respect to the other, extracting usable energy. In the case of a boat it's the combination of the keel and sail; for this vehicle, it's clever fixed gearing between the fan and wheels. In either case, the velocity of the vehicle relative to either medium is nearly irrelevant. Check back on this story in months and years and see whether it pans out. The idea behind this vehicle has been floating around the internet for at least three years, by the way. If you're really so confident that you're correct, I'm sure one of the "shills" would be happy to make a wager with you, mediated by a neutral third party. What kind of odds would you accept for a wager that the vehicle doesn't work?

Semiapies 16y ago

A) It is admittedly using stored energy - the propellers are spun by the wheels, which are spinning due to the vehicle's forward motion. I suspect that they may have come up with a clever trick to manage a burst of speed before slowing down back below the speed of the wind. The treadmill demo video shows the model speeding up, then slowing down. B) I'm not sure how long the temporary burst of speed would last on a larger model; I'd prefer an engineer coming up with that. My WAG would have that period be rather less than an hour. I'm reminded of perpetual motion scams, especially by someone creating a login to start defending them and demanding what would convince someone. Trying to put skeptics on the defensive and trying to force them to disprove the remarkable claim put forth is a classic shtick. And I think the perpetual motion bit is fair - if we take the treadmill video on its face, this is a vehicle that, in still air, would go uphill under its own lack of power - and even accelerate for a while after an initial push. This has nothing to do with apparent wind velocity.

ThinAirDesigns 16y ago
@Semiapies: >It is admittedly using stored energy - the propellers are spun by the wheels, which are spinning due to the vehicle's forward motion. I'm sorry, but by that logic your car is also "admittedly using stored energy" to accelerate (as the wheels and other parts are turning due to the vehicles forward motion) and we know this isn't the case. Just because there exists stored energy in a system, doesn't mean that this stored energy is being used and in fact, as the vehicle accelerates, more energy is stored rather than energy being used. In the case of this vehicle, it can't be using the stored energy in the propeller without it turning progressively slower and the videos show the propeller simply continuing to spin faster as the vehicle accelerates. The gearing between the prop and the wheels is fixed ... there's no way to slow the prop down and speed the wheels up -- that would require a variable ratio between the two. Semiapies: <<Trying to put skeptics on the defensive and trying to force them to disprove the remarkable claim put forth is a classic shtick. I don't recall attempting to force you to disprove anything. I simply asked period of time would convince you. You can call it "shtick" if you like -- I call it attempting to learn your position.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  "it can't be using the stored energy in the propeller" Note that I didn't say it was. Sorry to get you off-script. As claimed by the builders, the propeller is powered by the wheels. Assuming no other stored energy source, the stored energy is the motion of the vehicle after it's been started off by the wind. I'm not clear how they do it, but going from the treadmill video, I suspect they manage a temporary burst of speed followed by a slowdown. "I don't recall attempting to force you to disprove anything" You rushed in to try to get a layman to give explicit parameters for disproving it. That's a common tactic, usually followed by assurances that this system can totally do that, and we'll see video of it doing exactly that Real Soon Now. At this point, I'm waiting for the normal course of events: the other shoe will drop months from now and hardly make a blip on the blogs and other venues currently hyping this story.
  - ThinAirDesigns 16y ago
    Me: "it can't be using the stored energy in the propeller" You: "Note that I didn't say it was. Sorry to get you off-script." Wow -- you make a clear claim and then two posts later are denying you even said it. I'll refresh your memory: This is you claiming that the vehicle uses stored energy: "It is admittedly using stored energy - the propellers are spun by the wheels," You: "You rushed in to try to get a layman to give explicit parameters for disproving it." Nope -- I merely asked what would convince you -- big difference.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      Two posts? You're contradicting yourself within your single post, right here. I never said the energy was stored in the propeller. You even just quoted me saying exactly the opposite, twice! Real, working projects don't have shills - sorry, evangelists - running around here and other forums trying to shout down people who are dubious about the very physical possibility of what they've made. They don't have to - they have working machines!
      - ThinAirDesigns 16y ago
camccann 16y ago
"...this is a vehicle that, in still air, would go uphill under its own lack of power..." No, it wouldn't. The vehicle extracts energy from the velocity difference between the air and the ground, which it converts into forward motion. This is essentially the same mechanism used by sailboats tacking against the wind, and despite being counterintuitive at first is well-established. The speed is limited only by gearing and mechanical efficiency--an idealized device could accelerate arbitrarily. While the Wired link doesn't explain how the device works, the same idea has made the rounds on the internet many times before; links to detailed descriptions were already posted in the comments here, which I assume you didn't bother to read before implying that this is a scam? "Trying to put skeptics on the defensive" Sticking with a knee-jerk reaction against something while ignoring further information that supports it gives "skeptics" a bad name.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  "This is essentially the same mechanism used by sailboats tacking against the wind, and despite being counterintuitive at first is well-established." Tacking is different from this. This is using ground-speed to generate thrust, as even the shills acknowledge. "The speed is limited only by gearing and mechanical efficiency--an idealized device could accelerate arbitrarily." Arbitrary magic acceleration inside an atmosphere should be your first clue that something's extremely wrong here. And yes, I looked at the various forum links that turned up, which made very clear the very typical full-court astroturf press going on (like the argument above with someone who registered only to argue with unbelievers in this thread). You might take a look. "Sticking with a knee-jerk reaction against something while ignoring further information that supports it gives "skeptics" a bad name." Skeptics get a bad name because they don't join in the squee. All I ask is that you look at the further information. Check back on this story in months and years and see whether it pans out.
  - camccann 16y ago
    Arbitrary magic acceleration ...in other words, either you didn't actually read the explanations or you didn't understand them. The energy is being extracted from a velocity difference between two media. And no, tacking works on exactly the same principles in order to sail upwind. Some manner of mechanical linkage decelerates one or both media with respect to the other, extracting usable energy. In the case of a boat it's the combination of the keel and sail; for this vehicle, it's clever fixed gearing between the fan and wheels. In either case, the velocity of the vehicle relative to either medium is nearly irrelevant. Check back on this story in months and years and see whether it pans out. The idea behind this vehicle has been floating around the internet for at least three years, by the way. If you're really so confident that you're correct, I'm sure one of the "shills" would be happy to make a wager with you, mediated by a neutral third party. What kind of odds would you accept for a wager that the vehicle doesn't work?