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> If engineers would refuse to implement privacy invasions, they wouldn't happen. That'll never work, as long as it's just a personal ethical thing. There's a

> If engineers would refuse to implement privacy invasions, they wouldn't happen. That'll never work, as long as it's just a personal ethical thing. There's always someone who would rather take the money. Now, if there was a professional organization or union with some teeth, which could enforce some kind of ethical code, then maybe "engineers" could do something about stuff like this. I'm not sure how it would work in detail, but it might involve pickets/walkouts of entire organizations engaged in unethical projects or expelling members who work on them in a way that negatively affects their future job prospects.

voidlogic 10y ago
>That'll never work, as long as it's just a personal ethical thing. There's always someone who would rather take the money. So true >Now, if there was a professional organization or union with some teeth, which could enforce some kind of ethical code, then maybe "engineers" could do something about stuff like this. That won't work either. A few years ago most of the "programmers/developers/computer scientists" I worked with (we weren't pretending to be engineers yet), all had C-S degrees (either C-S undergrad or math/physics undergrad with C-S masters+). And by and large these people were usually members of the ACM or IEEE. Now with the rise of the "self tough (software) engineer", these professional organizations are weaker than ever before. My cube make is not only likely to be a boot camp graduate, they are likely to not know what the ACM is, never mind any ethical standards its has and of course have no concern for being kicked out. Now I am not saying all this is good or bad, democratization of technology has pros and cons. But its a shift that makes depending on professional orgs more worthless than ever before. (some of this is also coast vs inland US, the west coast as always had more self-tough vs academia tought programmers).
- Chaebixi 10y ago
  > And by and large these people were usually members of the ACM or IEEE. > But its a shift that makes depending on professional orgs more worthless than ever before. I don't think those organizations have ever had any "teeth" in any space, let alone the professional one. I don't think anything like what I'm talking about had ever existed for programmers. I'm thinking of something like more like a Bar Association (like for lawyers) with regulatory/licensing powers or a union with labor-market power. I admit, both are unlikely to arise anytime soon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_association#Mandatory.2C_integrated.2C_or_unified_bar_associations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_association#Mandatory.2C_i... > Some states require membership in the state's bar association to practice law there. Such an organization is called a mandatory, integrated, or unified bar,[3][4] and is a type of government-granted monopoly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment: > Disbarment is the removal of a lawyer from a bar association or the practice of law, thus revoking his or her law license or admission to practice law. Disbarment is usually a punishment for unethical or criminal conduct. Procedures vary depending on the law society. > Generally disbarment is imposed as a sanction for conduct indicating that an attorney is not fit to practice law, willfully disregarding the interests of a client, or engaging in fraud which impedes the administration of justice.
fragmede 10y ago
> That'll never work, as long as it's just a personal ethical thing. There's always someone who would rather take the money. Sure, but "I was just following orders because someone else was gonna" isn't going to win any ethical arguments. The point is the tech worker that implements these things is complicit, whether it's the database system for a list of Muslims or privacy invasion. Additionally, the sentiment is that tech workers can easily get another job, so "just following orders to pay the rent/mortgage" doesn't hold up either. To use an extreme example, if my work gave me a gun and tell me to go shoot a particular somebody, I'm going to refuse to do it (and tell the police). I'm sure they could find a murderer-for-hire, but I'm still not gonna be the one to pull the trigger.

voidlogic 10y ago

>That'll never work, as long as it's just a personal ethical thing. There's always someone who would rather take the money. So true >Now, if there was a professional organization or union with some teeth, which could enforce some kind of ethical code, then maybe "engineers" could do something about stuff like this. That won't work either. A few years ago most of the "programmers/developers/computer scientists" I worked with (we weren't pretending to be engineers yet), all had C-S degrees (either C-S undergrad or math/physics undergrad with C-S masters+). And by and large these people were usually members of the ACM or IEEE. Now with the rise of the "self tough (software) engineer", these professional organizations are weaker than ever before. My cube make is not only likely to be a boot camp graduate, they are likely to not know what the ACM is, never mind any ethical standards its has and of course have no concern for being kicked out. Now I am not saying all this is good or bad, democratization of technology has pros and cons. But its a shift that makes depending on professional orgs more worthless than ever before. (some of this is also coast vs inland US, the west coast as always had more self-tough vs academia tought programmers).

Chaebixi 10y ago
> And by and large these people were usually members of the ACM or IEEE. > But its a shift that makes depending on professional orgs more worthless than ever before. I don't think those organizations have ever had any "teeth" in any space, let alone the professional one. I don't think anything like what I'm talking about had ever existed for programmers. I'm thinking of something like more like a Bar Association (like for lawyers) with regulatory/licensing powers or a union with labor-market power. I admit, both are unlikely to arise anytime soon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_association#Mandatory.2C_integrated.2C_or_unified_bar_associations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_association#Mandatory.2C_i... > Some states require membership in the state's bar association to practice law there. Such an organization is called a mandatory, integrated, or unified bar,[3][4] and is a type of government-granted monopoly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment: > Disbarment is the removal of a lawyer from a bar association or the practice of law, thus revoking his or her law license or admission to practice law. Disbarment is usually a punishment for unethical or criminal conduct. Procedures vary depending on the law society. > Generally disbarment is imposed as a sanction for conduct indicating that an attorney is not fit to practice law, willfully disregarding the interests of a client, or engaging in fraud which impedes the administration of justice.

fragmede 10y ago

> That'll never work, as long as it's just a personal ethical thing. There's always someone who would rather take the money. Sure, but "I was just following orders because someone else was gonna" isn't going to win any ethical arguments. The point is the tech worker that implements these things is complicit, whether it's the database system for a list of Muslims or privacy invasion. Additionally, the sentiment is that tech workers can easily get another job, so "just following orders to pay the rent/mortgage" doesn't hold up either. To use an extreme example, if my work gave me a gun and tell me to go shoot a particular somebody, I'm going to refuse to do it (and tell the police). I'm sure they could find a murderer-for-hire, but I'm still not gonna be the one to pull the trigger.