5 ms·

You'll get programmers from developing countries with a good 10 years on them for $70k if you can build a company around a completely async remote culture. And

by jasim 10y ago

You'll get programmers from developing countries with a good 10 years on them for $70k if you can build a company around a completely async remote culture. And I'm not talking about fad-following framework-crazed devs, but rugged pros who'll cost a premium if they were in a developed country.

deepGem 10y ago
I can attest to this. A good dev in India with 10 years exp will cost about 40 lakhs - about $60K. You gotta keep in mind the ridiculous inflation in India and the rest of the developing world. So in like 2 years you could be paying at least 30% more.
throwaway2016a 10y ago
Yeah. There is significant management overhead. And things like standardized QA and requirements become very important since a miscommunication can cost a whole day due to timezone differences. I have been working hard to improve our processes but we aren't there yet.
spapas82 10y ago
Hello, this is not only true for developing countries but even for developed countries. I'll speak about my country, Greece. The average wage for a junior developer is a little less than 20 000 euros per month (around 1000 years/month x 14 months + 4000 for insurance etc) while for a senior may be a little more (but probably less than 30 000, depends on years and kind of work). Wages of more than 35 000 euros are seldom found for developers and are mainly reserved for management positions. The wages are more or less the same on most Southern Europe countries (Italy, Spain etc) and are definitely much less in less developed European Countries (Bulgaria, Hungary etc). So, if you focus on developers from similar countries you can get top talent (and I mean that, there are many great developers here, most of these people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley since they are working in their own country which the jobs are not much instead of migrating to a different place to find a job) for less than 40 000 euros / year. The only drawback would be that they'd want to work remotely (or else they'd have already migrated). So the best course of action is to create your company's culture to not only allow but to embrace remote work (i.e by trying to only hire remote people -- this'll also save you money). Also, another idea is that migrate the start up offices instead of trying to convince developers to migrate! Greece is a beautiful country after all :)
- csomar 10y ago
  I'd be careful with that calculation. Is the 20k EUR / year figure includes Taxes, Social Security and Office Space. The figures being thrown here (in the US) are pre-Tax/Social Security.
  - spapas82 10y ago
    For a junior dev yes, 20 k euros / year should include everything: - 14000 euros / year payment - 2000 euros / year insurance - 2000 euros / year tax For office space well the rents are around 200-300 euros / month for a small office - but he can also work from home.
- pedrosorio 10y ago
  "most of these people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley since they are working in their own country which the jobs are not much instead of migrating to a different place to find a job" These people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley because they refuse to emigrate? I don't follow your logic.
  - spapas82 10y ago
    Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear (english is not my main language): Here in Greece there are not too many jobs on local (Greek) companies because of the economical crisis and repression. Definitely there are more candidates than jobs. So most of these jobs would probably be given to the better / more experienced developers while, other, not so good developers will try to emigrate to other countries to find jobs. Notice that there was no culture of emigrating here in Greece before the crisis, people seldom emigrated because the family ties are strong here and people are raised with a culture of loving their country and not wanting to leave it (and as I said in a previous comment Greece is beautiful - you only want to leave it if you actually starve). This has changed due to crisis of course but I think that a good developer will definitely be able to find a job here in a local company and not need to emigrate.
    - pedrosorio 10y ago

by jasim 10y ago

deepGem 10y ago

I can attest to this. A good dev in India with 10 years exp will cost about 40 lakhs - about $60K. You gotta keep in mind the ridiculous inflation in India and the rest of the developing world. So in like 2 years you could be paying at least 30% more.

throwaway2016a 10y ago

Yeah. There is significant management overhead. And things like standardized QA and requirements become very important since a miscommunication can cost a whole day due to timezone differences. I have been working hard to improve our processes but we aren't there yet.

spapas82 10y ago

Hello, this is not only true for developing countries but even for developed countries. I'll speak about my country, Greece. The average wage for a junior developer is a little less than 20 000 euros per month (around 1000 years/month x 14 months + 4000 for insurance etc) while for a senior may be a little more (but probably less than 30 000, depends on years and kind of work). Wages of more than 35 000 euros are seldom found for developers and are mainly reserved for management positions. The wages are more or less the same on most Southern Europe countries (Italy, Spain etc) and are definitely much less in less developed European Countries (Bulgaria, Hungary etc). So, if you focus on developers from similar countries you can get top talent (and I mean that, there are many great developers here, most of these people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley since they are working in their own country which the jobs are not much instead of migrating to a different place to find a job) for less than 40 000 euros / year. The only drawback would be that they'd want to work remotely (or else they'd have already migrated). So the best course of action is to create your company's culture to not only allow but to embrace remote work (i.e by trying to only hire remote people -- this'll also save you money). Also, another idea is that migrate the start up offices instead of trying to convince developers to migrate! Greece is a beautiful country after all :)

csomar 10y ago
I'd be careful with that calculation. Is the 20k EUR / year figure includes Taxes, Social Security and Office Space. The figures being thrown here (in the US) are pre-Tax/Social Security.
- spapas82 10y ago
  For a junior dev yes, 20 k euros / year should include everything: - 14000 euros / year payment - 2000 euros / year insurance - 2000 euros / year tax For office space well the rents are around 200-300 euros / month for a small office - but he can also work from home.
pedrosorio 10y ago
"most of these people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley since they are working in their own country which the jobs are not much instead of migrating to a different place to find a job" These people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley because they refuse to emigrate? I don't follow your logic.
- spapas82 10y ago
  Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear (english is not my main language): Here in Greece there are not too many jobs on local (Greek) companies because of the economical crisis and repression. Definitely there are more candidates than jobs. So most of these jobs would probably be given to the better / more experienced developers while, other, not so good developers will try to emigrate to other countries to find jobs. Notice that there was no culture of emigrating here in Greece before the crisis, people seldom emigrated because the family ties are strong here and people are raised with a culture of loving their country and not wanting to leave it (and as I said in a previous comment Greece is beautiful - you only want to leave it if you actually starve). This has changed due to crisis of course but I think that a good developer will definitely be able to find a job here in a local company and not need to emigrate.
  - pedrosorio 10y ago