8 ms·

To be honest, when I have a lot of money, I want to build housing for homeless people, but there's a difference. They work for us. There's a product that any hu

To be honest, when I have a lot of money, I want to build housing for homeless people, but there's a difference. They work for us. There's a product that any human can do. We have a couple of floors full of cubicles with terminals. And in exchange for doing X hours of work for Y days per week using this product, a person gets their own room, 3 meals a day at the canteen, and some kind of monetary / card / bitcoin allowance they can use in the outside world. The housing has its own in house security, with monitoring and accountability. Also we vet and include some sort of community building, personality building, NGO / social welfare programs to work with people. It's sort of like an 18th century work house. Without the shame, coercion or slavery aspects. A very important point is we do not start from the perspective that "these people are 'wrong' and need to be 'fixed'" instead we start from the lovely awesome assumption that these people are humans and are inherently useful. So we get them to do useful things and give them stuff that most people want. Obviously, some people don't want to be part of any community, and some people would still prefer to live on the street even if they have housing. Such people can work there, but the whole package is really a niche for people who are looking for the whole package. Basically: food, shelter, work, money, without any hassle at all.

bitJericho 10y ago
If they could work they would.
- 19eightyfour 10y ago
  Maybe the problem is not them. It's the round holes we're trying to fit them into. Maybe if we expand the places they can fit...there can be something they can do.
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    A lot of people who can't hold down a job are like that because they aren't able to be consistently productive, not because they're not able to be productive at all.
    - bitJericho 10y ago
      They're also huge liabilities. You can't reason with unreasonable people. I do believe you can help them in other ways tho.
    - 19eightyfour 10y ago
      I think that's true that inconsistent results lead to poor employment outcomes, but I do believe that's only part of the picture. I think the perspective it misses is maybe the assessment is not true that it's their inability. Maybe we aren't looking at the right definition of opportunity, training, job, working environment, company culture, or even productivity to make that assessment of their ability currently. The basic thesis is these people are an underutilized resource because they do not fit into the consensus method of assessment of the system. In fact they're so outside the conventional metrics that people don't even realize it's discrimination how they're handled but it is. So I guess one way I plan to handle this in future is to approach it as a way to include a type of diversity and difference that is not currently being addressed. Not without realizing that these people are crafty and they will consistently try to get something for nothing if you provide them that opportunity. So I think a contract where there's exchange both ways is fair and it's something that has a chance of working.
hashkb 10y ago
You have good intentions but need to learn more about how one finds themselves in chronic homelessness first. If you are expecting something in return, or holding over someone (who may be delusional) a condition for help, you will not end up helping the people you set out to.
- 19eightyfour 10y ago
  I think it's fair to expect something in return. As long as the terms are such that suit the people, they'll be part of it. These people survive on their wits and customs of the street. They're not as hopeless as perhaps is made out. My idea is to redirect their energy and resourcefulness towards something useful, and add some socialization and boundaries that help them interface more fruitfully with normal civilization. But importantly, as a first step, doing useful work in exchange for things they need.
olalonde 10y ago
> They work for us. There's a product that any human can do. What are you referring to? What kind of work would they do specifically?
- 19eightyfour 10y ago
  Some kind of work that requires human intelligence that machines are not so great at. No need to say anything more specific yet.
sigstoat 10y ago
> To be honest, when I have a lot of money, I want to build housing for homeless people... based on that plan, i expect you'll spend most of your money on lawyers, dealing with all of the legal / zoning / HR / irs red tape involved in employing people on that sort of basis, while tying it to their housing, which sounds like the sort of thing that's been banned in most cities for decades.
- 19eightyfour 10y ago
  The legal side of it is very important but I don't think it's some fixed position that can't ever change. It's something to engage with and work with. If it was easy...it probably would have been done. It's not tied to their work specifically, but it is some sort of arrangement where it is to some extent conditional upon their needs, wants and behaviour. It's a multifaceted suitability assessment, where the people we would help still maintain autonomy over what they get -- not like they are just applying to some large bureaucracy hoping to win a lottery.
  - sigstoat 10y ago
    > It's not tied to their work specifically, but it is some sort of arrangement where it is to some extent conditional upon their needs the irs is going to see employees, subject to all the normal rules, and the city is going to see weird mixed commercial/residential property with strange density, and get all up in a fit. don't get me wrong, i'd like to see you succeed, and i think the world needs some similar things, up and down the scale of a person's ability to handle the world. but there's a whole lot of bureaucracy that doesn't already have a form for what you want to do, and so will oppose it simply out of reflex. (which is why i think your legal bills will be significant)
    - 19eightyfour 10y ago
      Legal is really important and I agree it might be a big cost. I don't see it as something regrettable I see it as setting up the legal is setting up the necessary compliance and policy infrastructure for something like this to be sustainable in a legal sense. I don't have any experience in this but I think there must be ways of presenting it where decision makers see this is as something desirable or are motivated to see the experiment take place. That might involve judiciously selecting a particular jurisdiction to launch something like this in at first. Or organizing for working in an area where we already have existing contacts with decision makers. Or finding some way to structure these things where legal is not the major obstacle so a creative way to fit into an existing category of something legitimate.
Spooky23 10y ago
My dad worked in public housing in NYC in the 90s when the city prioritized housing the homeless over all others. It was a disaster -- they brought a scourge of drugs, petty crime and serious issues like sexual predators and outlandish behavior that terrified the other residents. These people need support, many are in the situation they were in because they lack a support network. That means investing in trained people and keeping them engaged for a long time.
- 19eightyfour 10y ago
  That's the idea. Not just pen them in and let them run amok. But create a controlled community that works to bring out the best in them. I don't really believe anything cannot be overcome.
19eightyfour 10y ago
From the 4 downvotes ( which hurt a bit I'll admit, it's like punishment -- for what? Offering an idea? My instinctive response is 'whatever' to people who want to try to punish people for making ideas. Because this is a problem that needs ideas, punishing discussion is a ridiculous response. The comments I've gotten have not been the exemplar of constructive responses that such ideas and such a topic merit. ) -- I'm sensing there's a lot of negativity to this approach. Along the lines of "how dare you think you can help them." which is not a workable response at all. From my point of view, I don't really see the need to get so emotional about this. Just see it from a level headed perspective and take some concrete steps. Thinking that such a sad situation can be improved is not something to get so angry about. But to some extent I understand that...since it is an emotional issue, because it's such a painful one. I think it works to bring some calmness to the approach for excellent results. Even if I try this and fail the people are not going to be worse off. So why has this proposal garnered your hatred? It really doesn't make you look bad that I have an idea about this and am bold enough to say it, and you don't have any ideas to speak of. So if it doesn't make you look bad, and it's not going to cause any harm, but might actually cause some good, why do you hate it? No need to be afraid of it. What this will be, if it is anything, will be like nothing that has come before. So your reaction isn't about this idea. Your reaction to this idea is about you. While we could spend some more time discovering what about you it is, I don't want to spend that time so. You should discover what about this idea raises your ire so. That will be a really interesting discovery for you I think. That's what your reaction is about. You should work out why you feel like that. And while you're doing that, the people who choose to want to contribute to making improvements in this problem and others can get on and do that.
Nomentatus 10y ago
This works for some, no question, and has worked in my area in fact. But it's expensive, and that farm has now closed to save the government some money, more's the pity. Of course, this can quickly devolve into a workhouse or poorhouse; there's a black history there already. But I understand that that's not what's being proposed.
- 19eightyfour 10y ago
  Thanks for the example of where similar ideas have worked.

bitJericho 10y ago

If they could work they would.

19eightyfour 10y ago
Maybe the problem is not them. It's the round holes we're trying to fit them into. Maybe if we expand the places they can fit...there can be something they can do.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  A lot of people who can't hold down a job are like that because they aren't able to be consistently productive, not because they're not able to be productive at all.
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    They're also huge liabilities. You can't reason with unreasonable people. I do believe you can help them in other ways tho.
  - 19eightyfour 10y ago
    I think that's true that inconsistent results lead to poor employment outcomes, but I do believe that's only part of the picture. I think the perspective it misses is maybe the assessment is not true that it's their inability. Maybe we aren't looking at the right definition of opportunity, training, job, working environment, company culture, or even productivity to make that assessment of their ability currently. The basic thesis is these people are an underutilized resource because they do not fit into the consensus method of assessment of the system. In fact they're so outside the conventional metrics that people don't even realize it's discrimination how they're handled but it is. So I guess one way I plan to handle this in future is to approach it as a way to include a type of diversity and difference that is not currently being addressed. Not without realizing that these people are crafty and they will consistently try to get something for nothing if you provide them that opportunity. So I think a contract where there's exchange both ways is fair and it's something that has a chance of working.

hashkb 10y ago

You have good intentions but need to learn more about how one finds themselves in chronic homelessness first. If you are expecting something in return, or holding over someone (who may be delusional) a condition for help, you will not end up helping the people you set out to.

19eightyfour 10y ago
I think it's fair to expect something in return. As long as the terms are such that suit the people, they'll be part of it. These people survive on their wits and customs of the street. They're not as hopeless as perhaps is made out. My idea is to redirect their energy and resourcefulness towards something useful, and add some socialization and boundaries that help them interface more fruitfully with normal civilization. But importantly, as a first step, doing useful work in exchange for things they need.

olalonde 10y ago

> They work for us. There's a product that any human can do. What are you referring to? What kind of work would they do specifically?

19eightyfour 10y ago
Some kind of work that requires human intelligence that machines are not so great at. No need to say anything more specific yet.

sigstoat 10y ago

> To be honest, when I have a lot of money, I want to build housing for homeless people... based on that plan, i expect you'll spend most of your money on lawyers, dealing with all of the legal / zoning / HR / irs red tape involved in employing people on that sort of basis, while tying it to their housing, which sounds like the sort of thing that's been banned in most cities for decades.

19eightyfour 10y ago
The legal side of it is very important but I don't think it's some fixed position that can't ever change. It's something to engage with and work with. If it was easy...it probably would have been done. It's not tied to their work specifically, but it is some sort of arrangement where it is to some extent conditional upon their needs, wants and behaviour. It's a multifaceted suitability assessment, where the people we would help still maintain autonomy over what they get -- not like they are just applying to some large bureaucracy hoping to win a lottery.
- sigstoat 10y ago
  > It's not tied to their work specifically, but it is some sort of arrangement where it is to some extent conditional upon their needs the irs is going to see employees, subject to all the normal rules, and the city is going to see weird mixed commercial/residential property with strange density, and get all up in a fit. don't get me wrong, i'd like to see you succeed, and i think the world needs some similar things, up and down the scale of a person's ability to handle the world. but there's a whole lot of bureaucracy that doesn't already have a form for what you want to do, and so will oppose it simply out of reflex. (which is why i think your legal bills will be significant)
  - 19eightyfour 10y ago
    Legal is really important and I agree it might be a big cost. I don't see it as something regrettable I see it as setting up the legal is setting up the necessary compliance and policy infrastructure for something like this to be sustainable in a legal sense. I don't have any experience in this but I think there must be ways of presenting it where decision makers see this is as something desirable or are motivated to see the experiment take place. That might involve judiciously selecting a particular jurisdiction to launch something like this in at first. Or organizing for working in an area where we already have existing contacts with decision makers. Or finding some way to structure these things where legal is not the major obstacle so a creative way to fit into an existing category of something legitimate.

Spooky23 10y ago

My dad worked in public housing in NYC in the 90s when the city prioritized housing the homeless over all others. It was a disaster -- they brought a scourge of drugs, petty crime and serious issues like sexual predators and outlandish behavior that terrified the other residents. These people need support, many are in the situation they were in because they lack a support network. That means investing in trained people and keeping them engaged for a long time.

19eightyfour 10y ago
That's the idea. Not just pen them in and let them run amok. But create a controlled community that works to bring out the best in them. I don't really believe anything cannot be overcome.

19eightyfour 10y ago

From the 4 downvotes ( which hurt a bit I'll admit, it's like punishment -- for what? Offering an idea? My instinctive response is 'whatever' to people who want to try to punish people for making ideas. Because this is a problem that needs ideas, punishing discussion is a ridiculous response. The comments I've gotten have not been the exemplar of constructive responses that such ideas and such a topic merit. ) -- I'm sensing there's a lot of negativity to this approach. Along the lines of "how dare you think you can help them." which is not a workable response at all. From my point of view, I don't really see the need to get so emotional about this. Just see it from a level headed perspective and take some concrete steps. Thinking that such a sad situation can be improved is not something to get so angry about. But to some extent I understand that...since it is an emotional issue, because it's such a painful one. I think it works to bring some calmness to the approach for excellent results. Even if I try this and fail the people are not going to be worse off. So why has this proposal garnered your hatred? It really doesn't make you look bad that I have an idea about this and am bold enough to say it, and you don't have any ideas to speak of. So if it doesn't make you look bad, and it's not going to cause any harm, but might actually cause some good, why do you hate it? No need to be afraid of it. What this will be, if it is anything, will be like nothing that has come before. So your reaction isn't about this idea. Your reaction to this idea is about you. While we could spend some more time discovering what about you it is, I don't want to spend that time so. You should discover what about this idea raises your ire so. That will be a really interesting discovery for you I think. That's what your reaction is about. You should work out why you feel like that. And while you're doing that, the people who choose to want to contribute to making improvements in this problem and others can get on and do that.

Nomentatus 10y ago

This works for some, no question, and has worked in my area in fact. But it's expensive, and that farm has now closed to save the government some money, more's the pity. Of course, this can quickly devolve into a workhouse or poorhouse; there's a black history there already. But I understand that that's not what's being proposed.

19eightyfour 10y ago
Thanks for the example of where similar ideas have worked.