4 ms·

As well as mid-career engineers who don't have a time nor willingness to prepare for CS-riddle based interviews.

by zerr 10y ago

alexc05 10y ago
Ugghh... this exactly. I recently turned down a "we will fly you to the west coast" interview with one of the big five because I couldn't be bear the idea of spending weeks preparing for the 4-8 hour day of whiteboard coding (only to not get selected anyways). Spent the time hanging out with my girlfriend instead. Worth every minute.
- phil21 10y ago
  I think you almost played this right, with one caveat. You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all. Why? First, you never know. Maybe they legitimately want your skillset - why fake up some crap you hate for a job you don't need? Second, you'll get practice taking interviews in a very low pressure situation. Worst-case they laugh at you and you fly home. Best-case you get an unexpected job offer you can evaluate. Either way you got some practice and "game time" with the process so if you're ever in a more high pressure situation (e.g. you really need the job) it's a lot easier. Plus, smart people meeting other smart people is never a bad thing.
  - gtaylor 10y ago
    > You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all. Having done this when I was younger and more foolish, I would not recommend it at all. I felt like I did pretty well overall, but ultimately flubbed a couple of [simple] questions that torpedoed my chances. While things worked out for the best (that company's future looks grim and I'm very happy where I am now), it was a blow to my confidence at the time. I probably wouldn't have had to have prepared for a month or two to get that offer. A week of glancing at my notes for 30 minutes to an hour a day to refresh would have been sufficient. I think you owe it to yourself and the company who is paying to fly you out to at least brush up a _little_ bit (within reason) beforehand. It's almost like basic hygiene.
  - jonnathanson 10y ago
    I think the worst case is a little hairier than that. Companies keep records of their applicants and interview feedback. I'm dramatically oversimplifying, but your feedback will spell out two things in isolation: your fit for the role you applied for, and your fit for the company in general. If you do badly enough not to clear that second hurdle, you're going to have a hard time getting future interviews at the company. So I wouldn't recommend winging it in a Big 5 interview unless you're comfortable with the possibility that a bad performance might blackball you there. But hey, some folks are fine with that risk. Others are confident enough that they feel their seat-of-the-pants performance will still clear the basic hurdles. If that's you, then more power to you.
    - pm90 10y ago
      Meh, personal experience has been that demand for SE's is high enough that every company will give you another shot after a year. That is important to note though: you don't get another shot for a year.
    - kudokatz 10y ago
      > So I wouldn't recommend winging it in a Big 5 interview unless you're comfortable with the possibility that a bad performance might blackball you there. After going through "interview training" for one, they do blacklist people. But it's probably not as bad as you think. Also, even after getting pushed out of one org, another was extremely happy to offer me a job years later despite having all the info on me (even if I turned it down). Individual hiring managers can have a good amount of discretion.
  - alexc05 10y ago
    Failure really hurts me on a psychological level. I don't have any interest in half assing stuff. If I can't crush it, I don't want to play. The cost of the flight & hotel is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things. By that I mean relative to stuff like going to a place you want to see, the value of spending a vacation day, etc... I do agree that the meeting smart people is fun... but the full on crash-and-burn on an algorithm + whiteboard interview would really have a massive negative impact on my confidence & self-esteem. Not worth it.
    - kudokatz 10y ago
      > If I can't crush it, I don't want to play. It's really worth it, IMO. There's really a HUGE element of luck: from the personality and opinions of those interviewing you to the questions they happen to choose that day. Seriously - internalize that and just try it out!
    - phil21 10y ago
      I am horrible at checking my comment replies, so sorry about the lateness. Hopefully you see this. This is a fair point, but I simply want to point out that was half the reason I suggested it. Learning how to fail :) I very much understand the mental aspect here though, so that's a tough one and my advice is not for everyone. I will say that at some point in your career you will fail though - or you aren't pushing yourself very hard. I believe this was one of the harder things I had to "train" myself to deal with; the mental load of failing at something and how to recover. If you're not in a mental space to make that experience a positive for you? Absolutely skip it.
- etergri 10y ago
  Nobody will tell you this but.. you won at life over 95% of google engineers.
fancy_pantser 10y ago
It's really insulting that the exact same interview steps and questions are being handed to all levels of applicants. If you want to see a different screening process that focuses on the skills you've acquired (technical and soft) and not just trivia and knowledge of one exact stack, you'd have to move on to a management or exec position. Those that stay developers will find themselves sharing their screen while literally doing FizzBuzz and reversing linked lists with 10+ years of experience on their resume. On the flip side, it takes a huge amount of forethought to create different tests, projects, and screening practices for every position and then re-shaping for each experience level, particularly if the team is young and inexperienced; it's difficult to test for what you don't have yet.
- alasdair_ 10y ago
  I have no problem with a five minute check to make sure that I'm not just flat out lying when I claim to be able to code. There are a surprising amount of "senior architect" types that can talk all day but can't write very simple code. I'm never doing another hour-long whiteboard interview again in my life however. The whole process has become so gamified now that most new entrants have practiced the exact types of questions asked hundreds of times. I'm not interesting in spending a month of my life doing that any more and I no longer need to. The whole SAT-prep feel of the interview process now is tiresome.
- alasdair_ 10y ago
  I have no problem with a five minute check to make sure that I'm not just flat out lying when I claim to be able to code. There are a surprising amount of "senior architect" types that can talk all day but can't write very simple code. I'm never doing another hour-long whiteboard interview again in my life however. The whole process has become so gamified now that most new entrants have practiced the exact types of questions asked hundreds of times. I'm not interesting in spending a month of my life doing that any more and I no longer need to. The whole SAT-prep feel of the interview process now is tiresome.

As well as mid-career engineers who don't have a time nor willingness to prepare for CS-riddle based interviews.

by zerr 10y ago

As well as mid-career engineers who don't have a time nor willingness to prepare for CS-riddle based interviews.

Ugghh... this exactly. I recently turned down a "we will fly you to the west coast" interview with one of the big five because I couldn't be bear the idea of spending weeks preparing for the 4-8 hour day of whiteboard coding (only to not get selected anyways). Spent the time hanging out with my girlfriend instead. Worth every minute.

phil21 10y ago
I think you almost played this right, with one caveat. You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all. Why? First, you never know. Maybe they legitimately want your skillset - why fake up some crap you hate for a job you don't need? Second, you'll get practice taking interviews in a very low pressure situation. Worst-case they laugh at you and you fly home. Best-case you get an unexpected job offer you can evaluate. Either way you got some practice and "game time" with the process so if you're ever in a more high pressure situation (e.g. you really need the job) it's a lot easier. Plus, smart people meeting other smart people is never a bad thing.
- gtaylor 10y ago
  > You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all. Having done this when I was younger and more foolish, I would not recommend it at all. I felt like I did pretty well overall, but ultimately flubbed a couple of [simple] questions that torpedoed my chances. While things worked out for the best (that company's future looks grim and I'm very happy where I am now), it was a blow to my confidence at the time. I probably wouldn't have had to have prepared for a month or two to get that offer. A week of glancing at my notes for 30 minutes to an hour a day to refresh would have been sufficient. I think you owe it to yourself and the company who is paying to fly you out to at least brush up a _little_ bit (within reason) beforehand. It's almost like basic hygiene.
- jonnathanson 10y ago
  I think the worst case is a little hairier than that. Companies keep records of their applicants and interview feedback. I'm dramatically oversimplifying, but your feedback will spell out two things in isolation: your fit for the role you applied for, and your fit for the company in general. If you do badly enough not to clear that second hurdle, you're going to have a hard time getting future interviews at the company. So I wouldn't recommend winging it in a Big 5 interview unless you're comfortable with the possibility that a bad performance might blackball you there. But hey, some folks are fine with that risk. Others are confident enough that they feel their seat-of-the-pants performance will still clear the basic hurdles. If that's you, then more power to you.
  - pm90 10y ago
    Meh, personal experience has been that demand for SE's is high enough that every company will give you another shot after a year. That is important to note though: you don't get another shot for a year.
  - kudokatz 10y ago
    > So I wouldn't recommend winging it in a Big 5 interview unless you're comfortable with the possibility that a bad performance might blackball you there. After going through "interview training" for one, they do blacklist people. But it's probably not as bad as you think. Also, even after getting pushed out of one org, another was extremely happy to offer me a job years later despite having all the info on me (even if I turned it down). Individual hiring managers can have a good amount of discretion.
- alexc05 10y ago
  Failure really hurts me on a psychological level. I don't have any interest in half assing stuff. If I can't crush it, I don't want to play. The cost of the flight & hotel is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things. By that I mean relative to stuff like going to a place you want to see, the value of spending a vacation day, etc... I do agree that the meeting smart people is fun... but the full on crash-and-burn on an algorithm + whiteboard interview would really have a massive negative impact on my confidence & self-esteem. Not worth it.
  - kudokatz 10y ago
    > If I can't crush it, I don't want to play. It's really worth it, IMO. There's really a HUGE element of luck: from the personality and opinions of those interviewing you to the questions they happen to choose that day. Seriously - internalize that and just try it out!
  - phil21 10y ago
    I am horrible at checking my comment replies, so sorry about the lateness. Hopefully you see this. This is a fair point, but I simply want to point out that was half the reason I suggested it. Learning how to fail :) I very much understand the mental aspect here though, so that's a tough one and my advice is not for everyone. I will say that at some point in your career you will fail though - or you aren't pushing yourself very hard. I believe this was one of the harder things I had to "train" myself to deal with; the mental load of failing at something and how to recover. If you're not in a mental space to make that experience a positive for you? Absolutely skip it.
etergri 10y ago
Nobody will tell you this but.. you won at life over 95% of google engineers.

fancy_pantser 10y ago

It's really insulting that the exact same interview steps and questions are being handed to all levels of applicants. If you want to see a different screening process that focuses on the skills you've acquired (technical and soft) and not just trivia and knowledge of one exact stack, you'd have to move on to a management or exec position. Those that stay developers will find themselves sharing their screen while literally doing FizzBuzz and reversing linked lists with 10+ years of experience on their resume. On the flip side, it takes a huge amount of forethought to create different tests, projects, and screening practices for every position and then re-shaping for each experience level, particularly if the team is young and inexperienced; it's difficult to test for what you don't have yet.

alasdair_ 10y ago
I have no problem with a five minute check to make sure that I'm not just flat out lying when I claim to be able to code. There are a surprising amount of "senior architect" types that can talk all day but can't write very simple code. I'm never doing another hour-long whiteboard interview again in my life however. The whole process has become so gamified now that most new entrants have practiced the exact types of questions asked hundreds of times. I'm not interesting in spending a month of my life doing that any more and I no longer need to. The whole SAT-prep feel of the interview process now is tiresome.
alasdair_ 10y ago
I have no problem with a five minute check to make sure that I'm not just flat out lying when I claim to be able to code. There are a surprising amount of "senior architect" types that can talk all day but can't write very simple code. I'm never doing another hour-long whiteboard interview again in my life however. The whole process has become so gamified now that most new entrants have practiced the exact types of questions asked hundreds of times. I'm not interesting in spending a month of my life doing that any more and I no longer need to. The whole SAT-prep feel of the interview process now is tiresome.