8 ms·

I want a privacy first router. Does such a product exist? Key features: - I pay a subscription for maintenance (so I'm not the product) say $10/mo - Auto

I want a privacy first router. Does such a product exist? Key features: - I pay a subscription for maintenance (so I'm not the product) say $10/mo - Automatically routes all traffic over a VPN. - Smart VPN bypass for performance-sensitive traffic like streaming video and gaming - Provides non-logging DNS service - Automatic advertisement blocking For VPN, DNS, and adblock I want the option to use servers & block lists maintained by the paid service, augment them with my own, or use my own exclusively. Bonus points for rotating requests between providers. Does such a product exist? I think I could hack together something similar using DD-WRT[1], but I'm confident the maintenance hassle will eventually outweigh my desire for privacy. #shutupandtakemymoney [1] http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index

twsted 10y ago
> I'm confident the maintenance hassle will eventually outweigh my desire for privacy. Nothing should outweigh your right for privacy.
- edraferi 10y ago
  Sure, but there's a cost to exercise that right. Right now, the cost of protecting myself from my ISP is quite high. I need to maintain DNS and VPN settings for every device in my home... many of which are personal devices of other family members with little patience for such techno-babble. I want a product that reduces the cost of exercising my right to privacy, and allows me to pay that cost with money instead of time.
  - baumandm 10y ago
    There are commercially-available routers which support running all traffic through a VPN. That should handle all the devices in your house.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      A VPN doesn't actually provide more privacy, it just changes who can snoop on your data.
      - baumandm 10y ago
        Privacy isn't an either/or. That's like saying closing your window curtains doesn't give you more privacy, because your phone might be wiretapped.
        icebraining 10y ago
        I don't agree with that analogy. The VPN takes away the ISP's snooping abilities, but gives snooping abilities to another company that wouldn't otherwise have it.
      - Crespyl 10y ago
        You're right, of course, but a VPN at least lets you make sure that the service that can snoop on your data doesn't want to snoop on your data, because they know you'll just leave them for another, more privacy conscious, provider if they do. VPN providers have incentive to compete with each other and commitment to user privacy is an important selling point. ISPs have zero commitment to privacy and almost no reason to compete since users have no choice.
        icebraining 10y ago
        You're right, of course, but a VPN at least lets you make sure that the service that can snoop on your data doesn't want to snoop on your data, because they know you'll just leave them for another, more privacy conscious, provider if they do. Only if you can tell that they're doing so. If they create two companies with no apparent connections, how would you know that VPN company A was selling your data through Marketing company B?
        state_less 10y ago
  - tgragnato 10y ago
    I would set up a tor endpoint on the home connection (to make the collected data as useless as possible). Combining this with a regular VPN should be enough effective, with a minimum maintenance burden.
- aithoughts 10y ago
  Privacy is weighed against public safety all the time. The question is at which point does it become unreasonable. Warrantless searches of American individuals just so happens to be where we, as Americans, draw the line. On the other hand, don't mistake my assault on the technical validity of your sentence for disagreement with its intent. We should be outraged. Shame on us for having allowed this to happen, and for the dangerous precendent it sets for local monopolies to sell your information.
pragone 10y ago
Someone posted on a similar thread yesterday or the day about something that would fit the bill for you. I'll see if I can find it. Off the top of my head, I think they sold a router, mostly pre-configured with ddwrt, that you plugged in your info for PrivateInternetAccess and used them as the VPN. Could be wrong though. Edit: Here's what I was talking about: https://easyvpnrouter.com/ https://easyvpnrouter.com/. May or may not meet your needs
- edraferi 10y ago
  That's great! Good find, thanks. The website mentions an interesting solution to the streaming media problem: "Keep your existing router and run both networks simultaneously. Connect to your Easy VPN Router when you need safety" So basically I could have the performance-sensitive devices hook up to the existing router, then use Easy VPN as the main access point for everything else. That's probably a lot more maintainable than trying to choose what goes over the VPN dynamically.
dfar1 10y ago
A router only helps you at home. We need a service that protects you anywhere.
- fosco 10y ago
  An app that enables you to use your home router as a gateway could solve this problem. I had an idea called 'Home Gateway' awhile back, but i do not have the business acumen and lack part of the technical know-how to complete such a task.
bubblethink 10y ago
> - Smart VPN bypass for performance-sensitive traffic like streaming video and gaming It is highly error-prone to maintain (or expect a company to maintain) essentially a large filter list. In the end you'll end up with a product that gives you neither privacy nor performance. For a real world example, try using a smart dns. They suck at dns on its own. And they have to keep up with the cat and mouse of content sellers blocking them. You'll end up with pretty much the same situation with your smart vpn solution. You'll never know reliably what's going over which route (unless you are making the list), debugging will be a nightmare, and you'll have leaks all over.
- PietdeVries 10y ago
  For the nerds among us this shouldn't be too hard. A Virtual Private Server can be rented for a few dollars a month. I have seen examples that charge less than $4 for unlimited bandwidth. Install VPN software on the server and become your own VPN provider. On your home router you can setup a point-to-point VPN connection and you're done - all traffic encrypted and bypassing your local telco. I assume that network-providers are not included in this legislation though...
  - andrewSC 10y ago
    Mind divulging on some VPS providers? The one I've been looking at closely is https://www.vultr.com/ https://www.vultr.com/ Their $2.50/month plan fits me well as my monthly traffic across all my devices (and home) is roughly 100GB. Pair that with https://github.com/trailofbits/algo https://github.com/trailofbits/algo and it's a reasonable setup.
    - fny 10y ago
      I'm a fan of RamNode. I've been using them since they launched a few years ago without a hiccup.
  - Spivak 10y ago
    There is one issue that your traffic is typically flagged as originating from a VPS provider and you might end up getting denied or have to do annoying challenges. Still worth it but it's something to consider.
pdkl95 10y ago
> VPN This is a political problem. Technology like a VPN or alternative DNS is little more than a placebo. With the ISP as a permanent MitM, modern deep-packet inspection, etc, you are probably still leaking a lot of information. Worse, you're only moving the problem to a different location. Even if you were able to hide your traffic from your local ISP, your VPN host or DNS service becomes your ISP de facto. Also, if any of your online accounts can be tied back to you on their own, you might not get a choice in the matter; the server's ISP can also sell information. What about TLS? Unfortunately far too many websites are only encrypted to CloudFlare. However, the real reason that VPNs/etc are not a solution is that privacy shouldn't be limited to people with a technical background. Those of us that do understand the technology have a duty to help the people without that knowledge and experience.
- williamle8300 10y ago
  Tell people to use the Opera browser. It has VPN built-in.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    So you trust the company involved in the WoSign debacle with your data?
    - r00fus 10y ago
      The question isn't about absolute trust. It's about who you trust more with your privacy. So yeah, I think I'd trust almost anyone more than my ISP now because they have an incentive to profit off my lack of privacy.
- edraferi 10y ago
  > Worse, you're only moving the problem to a different location I agree that's true from a technical perspective. However, the VPN provider has an economic incentive to compete on privacy. I would much rather just trust my local ISP, but at least I have a choice in VPN providers. > privacy shouldn't be limited to people with a technical background Absolutely. That's why I want this as a product that Just Works instead of my own hacked-up implementation.
secfirstmd 10y ago
You should try a the NetAidKit. We use them a lot for high risk human rights defenders travelling to various places. It works with VPN and Tor. Has wifi bridging, is portable etc. https://netaidkit.net https://netaidkit.net
peterlk 10y ago
I use a service called Cloak[1], and I'm super happy with it. I'm getting 75MB/s down over my Wifi while VPNd through their service. I often forget that it is on because it _just works_. I have no affiliation with them, I just think they make a good product. [1](https://www.getcloak.com/ https://www.getcloak.com/)
- vocatus_gate 10y ago
  I seriously doubt you're getting 75 MEGABYTES down over Wifi. Did you mean 75 Megabits (Mb)? There is a major difference between Mb and MB. 75 MB would be equal to 600 Mb per second.
  - pestaa 10y ago
    Why not? 5 Ghz connections are capable of delivering > 1 Gbit over the... air.
    - vocatus_gate 10y ago
      :eyeroll: Sure, and MIT managed to transmit data wirelessly at 1 Tb/s one time. But we're talking about the real world and regular consumer hardware here.
      - pestaa 10y ago
        TP-Link Archer C7 can do up to 1300 Mbps over 802.11ac, and costs about $85. No university research equipment required.
ellius 10y ago
I was mulling over a service like this. Was thinking I'd set it up roughly like so: 1. Create Terraform / Ansible scripting to boot up fresh DigitalOcean droplets with OpenVPN and encrypted DNS / pi-hole to strip out ads. 2. Bulk purchase cheap dynamic DNS domains (or just generate sub domains on command and hit some kind of load balancer). 3. Create scripting to shuffle the various VPN boxes every x time (each night, week, whatever). I'm not an expert, so I might be missing things here. But I'd pay for that, and I think all you'd have to do as a client is put OpenVPN client on your router and point it to whatever static domain you're assigned by the service. EDIT: I also figured I'd donate some % of proceeds to OpenVPN / Pi-Hole.

twsted 10y ago

> I'm confident the maintenance hassle will eventually outweigh my desire for privacy. Nothing should outweigh your right for privacy.

edraferi 10y ago
Sure, but there's a cost to exercise that right. Right now, the cost of protecting myself from my ISP is quite high. I need to maintain DNS and VPN settings for every device in my home... many of which are personal devices of other family members with little patience for such techno-babble. I want a product that reduces the cost of exercising my right to privacy, and allows me to pay that cost with money instead of time.
- baumandm 10y ago
  There are commercially-available routers which support running all traffic through a VPN. That should handle all the devices in your house.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    A VPN doesn't actually provide more privacy, it just changes who can snoop on your data.
    - baumandm 10y ago
      Privacy isn't an either/or. That's like saying closing your window curtains doesn't give you more privacy, because your phone might be wiretapped.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        I don't agree with that analogy. The VPN takes away the ISP's snooping abilities, but gives snooping abilities to another company that wouldn't otherwise have it.
    - Crespyl 10y ago
      You're right, of course, but a VPN at least lets you make sure that the service that can snoop on your data doesn't want to snoop on your data, because they know you'll just leave them for another, more privacy conscious, provider if they do. VPN providers have incentive to compete with each other and commitment to user privacy is an important selling point. ISPs have zero commitment to privacy and almost no reason to compete since users have no choice.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        You're right, of course, but a VPN at least lets you make sure that the service that can snoop on your data doesn't want to snoop on your data, because they know you'll just leave them for another, more privacy conscious, provider if they do. Only if you can tell that they're doing so. If they create two companies with no apparent connections, how would you know that VPN company A was selling your data through Marketing company B?
        state_less 10y ago
- tgragnato 10y ago
  I would set up a tor endpoint on the home connection (to make the collected data as useless as possible). Combining this with a regular VPN should be enough effective, with a minimum maintenance burden.
aithoughts 10y ago
Privacy is weighed against public safety all the time. The question is at which point does it become unreasonable. Warrantless searches of American individuals just so happens to be where we, as Americans, draw the line. On the other hand, don't mistake my assault on the technical validity of your sentence for disagreement with its intent. We should be outraged. Shame on us for having allowed this to happen, and for the dangerous precendent it sets for local monopolies to sell your information.

pragone 10y ago

Someone posted on a similar thread yesterday or the day about something that would fit the bill for you. I'll see if I can find it. Off the top of my head, I think they sold a router, mostly pre-configured with ddwrt, that you plugged in your info for PrivateInternetAccess and used them as the VPN. Could be wrong though. Edit: Here's what I was talking about: https://easyvpnrouter.com/ https://easyvpnrouter.com/. May or may not meet your needs

edraferi 10y ago
That's great! Good find, thanks. The website mentions an interesting solution to the streaming media problem: "Keep your existing router and run both networks simultaneously. Connect to your Easy VPN Router when you need safety" So basically I could have the performance-sensitive devices hook up to the existing router, then use Easy VPN as the main access point for everything else. That's probably a lot more maintainable than trying to choose what goes over the VPN dynamically.

dfar1 10y ago

A router only helps you at home. We need a service that protects you anywhere.

fosco 10y ago
An app that enables you to use your home router as a gateway could solve this problem. I had an idea called 'Home Gateway' awhile back, but i do not have the business acumen and lack part of the technical know-how to complete such a task.

bubblethink 10y ago

> - Smart VPN bypass for performance-sensitive traffic like streaming video and gaming It is highly error-prone to maintain (or expect a company to maintain) essentially a large filter list. In the end you'll end up with a product that gives you neither privacy nor performance. For a real world example, try using a smart dns. They suck at dns on its own. And they have to keep up with the cat and mouse of content sellers blocking them. You'll end up with pretty much the same situation with your smart vpn solution. You'll never know reliably what's going over which route (unless you are making the list), debugging will be a nightmare, and you'll have leaks all over.

PietdeVries 10y ago
For the nerds among us this shouldn't be too hard. A Virtual Private Server can be rented for a few dollars a month. I have seen examples that charge less than $4 for unlimited bandwidth. Install VPN software on the server and become your own VPN provider. On your home router you can setup a point-to-point VPN connection and you're done - all traffic encrypted and bypassing your local telco. I assume that network-providers are not included in this legislation though...
- andrewSC 10y ago
  Mind divulging on some VPS providers? The one I've been looking at closely is https://www.vultr.com/ https://www.vultr.com/ Their $2.50/month plan fits me well as my monthly traffic across all my devices (and home) is roughly 100GB. Pair that with https://github.com/trailofbits/algo https://github.com/trailofbits/algo and it's a reasonable setup.
  - fny 10y ago
    I'm a fan of RamNode. I've been using them since they launched a few years ago without a hiccup.
- Spivak 10y ago
  There is one issue that your traffic is typically flagged as originating from a VPS provider and you might end up getting denied or have to do annoying challenges. Still worth it but it's something to consider.

pdkl95 10y ago

> VPN This is a political problem. Technology like a VPN or alternative DNS is little more than a placebo. With the ISP as a permanent MitM, modern deep-packet inspection, etc, you are probably still leaking a lot of information. Worse, you're only moving the problem to a different location. Even if you were able to hide your traffic from your local ISP, your VPN host or DNS service becomes your ISP de facto. Also, if any of your online accounts can be tied back to you on their own, you might not get a choice in the matter; the server's ISP can also sell information. What about TLS? Unfortunately far too many websites are only encrypted to CloudFlare. However, the real reason that VPNs/etc are not a solution is that privacy shouldn't be limited to people with a technical background. Those of us that do understand the technology have a duty to help the people without that knowledge and experience.

williamle8300 10y ago
Tell people to use the Opera browser. It has VPN built-in.
- icebraining 10y ago
  So you trust the company involved in the WoSign debacle with your data?
  - r00fus 10y ago
    The question isn't about absolute trust. It's about who you trust more with your privacy. So yeah, I think I'd trust almost anyone more than my ISP now because they have an incentive to profit off my lack of privacy.
edraferi 10y ago
> Worse, you're only moving the problem to a different location I agree that's true from a technical perspective. However, the VPN provider has an economic incentive to compete on privacy. I would much rather just trust my local ISP, but at least I have a choice in VPN providers. > privacy shouldn't be limited to people with a technical background Absolutely. That's why I want this as a product that Just Works instead of my own hacked-up implementation.

secfirstmd 10y ago

You should try a the NetAidKit. We use them a lot for high risk human rights defenders travelling to various places. It works with VPN and Tor. Has wifi bridging, is portable etc. https://netaidkit.net https://netaidkit.net

peterlk 10y ago

I use a service called Cloak[1], and I'm super happy with it. I'm getting 75MB/s down over my Wifi while VPNd through their service. I often forget that it is on because it _just works_. I have no affiliation with them, I just think they make a good product. [1](https://www.getcloak.com/ https://www.getcloak.com/)

vocatus_gate 10y ago
I seriously doubt you're getting 75 MEGABYTES down over Wifi. Did you mean 75 Megabits (Mb)? There is a major difference between Mb and MB. 75 MB would be equal to 600 Mb per second.
- pestaa 10y ago
  Why not? 5 Ghz connections are capable of delivering > 1 Gbit over the... air.
  - vocatus_gate 10y ago
    :eyeroll: Sure, and MIT managed to transmit data wirelessly at 1 Tb/s one time. But we're talking about the real world and regular consumer hardware here.
    - pestaa 10y ago
      TP-Link Archer C7 can do up to 1300 Mbps over 802.11ac, and costs about $85. No university research equipment required.

ellius 10y ago

I was mulling over a service like this. Was thinking I'd set it up roughly like so: 1. Create Terraform / Ansible scripting to boot up fresh DigitalOcean droplets with OpenVPN and encrypted DNS / pi-hole to strip out ads. 2. Bulk purchase cheap dynamic DNS domains (or just generate sub domains on command and hit some kind of load balancer). 3. Create scripting to shuffle the various VPN boxes every x time (each night, week, whatever). I'm not an expert, so I might be missing things here. But I'd pay for that, and I think all you'd have to do as a client is put OpenVPN client on your router and point it to whatever static domain you're assigned by the service. EDIT: I also figured I'd donate some % of proceeds to OpenVPN / Pi-Hole.