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> which will include higher prices Interesting. I was in a UK supermarket the other day and the asparagus on offer was from Spain and Mexico. The Mexican varie

by krona 10y ago

> which will include higher prices Interesting. I was in a UK supermarket the other day and the asparagus on offer was from Spain and Mexico. The Mexican variety was cheaper, and just as good. Currently, Mexico pays a 14.4% common external tariff on this product, and it's still cheaper than what the EU (with it's massive array of agricultural subsidy) can produce. I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

louisswiss 10y ago
*heart of the iceberg (lettuce) - tip of the asparagus.
JamesMcMinn 10y ago
Given that Spain is still recovering from flooding, cold weather and a bunch of other issues [1] that have made growing vegetables impossible in many areas, that's not really a surprise. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38666752 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38666752
- ktzar 10y ago
  That's an article from almost 2 months ago.
  - JamesMcMinn 10y ago
    ...yes, it is. So what? Vegetables don't just magically appear in minutes - they take weeks or months to grow, so bad winter has an effect which can last for most of the year.
- pvaldes 10y ago
  > Spain is still recovering from flooding This was only in a small part of Spain, mostly turistic. Those places full of english expatriates are always overrepresented in english newspapers IMHO, giving a false impression. It can seem worst that it is also. Free water means literally free money fallen from the sky and of course those big companies have enough muscle and resources to replace the plastic greenhouses and restart quickly. The winter was not particularly hard. I remember a bad couple of weeks. Not much more. A little chill is good for most fruits. Casually, I has aubergines for dining today. It seems that the problem to find spanish vegetables in the market is solved.
lhopki01 10y ago
Yes anecdotal evidence of one trip to the supermarket which has nothing to do with the very terrible winter in Southern Europe. Time for anecdotal evidence. My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote.
- krona 10y ago
  This is the UK's largest supermarket chain, so this it's hardly anecdotal evidence; What I said is verifiable, and doesn't rely on my own witness account. Meanwhile, a statement like My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote is completely meaningless.
  - lhopki01 10y ago
    It's one datapoint alongside a well know fact that Southern European vegetables are more expensive atm because of a bad winter. You have pointed out one good amongst thousands that was cheaper when it came from outside the EU. I'm sure there are many others but that's irrelevant. Those specific goods does not mean that this is the result of the EU. What everyone is afraid of is what will happen if tariffs are applied to EU goods when they come into the UK.
  - JamesMcMinn 10y ago
    > anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research. By definition, it is anecdotal. A single piece of price data observed only by you with no evidence is not proof that EU grown vegetables are more expensive than those from Mexico. To say that someones supermarket bill going up is somehow more anecdotal than "I found asparagus from Spain that cost more than asparagus from Mexico" is absurd.
    - krona 10y ago
      I'm providing empirical evidence of a verifiable claim that is either true or false. You can argue about the rigorousness of the claim, but regardless it can be independently verified.
TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
That may be because the minimum wages are massively different for the two countries, with $0.48/hr in Mexico vs $4.98/hr in Spain[1]. Globalism does exploit the lower standard of living of other countries, after all. That means that even though there are massive tariffs, these "third world" countries can still make a profit because of the abysmal quality of life for its citizens. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count...
- krona 10y ago
  Of course it's because of wages! The point is, it is because of protectionism that Mexican and African farmers cant sell their products in to the EU at a fair price, and once outside the customs union, the poorest consumers in the UK and the poorest farmers in the world both stand to benefit. Global trade is lifting billions of the poorest people out of poverty, and long may it continue.
  - TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
    It's true that globalization is raising the average income of people in many places in the world, but it is also causing an increase in inequality within most countries[1]. It's not fair to the middle class of a country when it needs to compete against a country that doesn't have the same environmental or labor laws that it has. This leads to a race to the bottom and tanks the quality of life for most people, though the capital owners get out ahead. Why can't those countries form their own industries? [1] https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/pdf/c4.pdf https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/pdf/c4.pdf
  - danmaz74 10y ago
    Try to tell that to UK farmers. Or blue collars. Or anyone working on producing things.
    - 794CD01 10y ago
      There's not much point in telling the truth to people so personally invested in not listening.
TorKlingberg 10y ago
That's because we are early in the asparagus season, and Mexico is a warmer country. Wait a couple of weeks and you will see mostly Spanish asparagus. A couple of more weeks and it will be British.

by krona 10y ago

louisswiss 10y ago

*heart of the iceberg (lettuce) - tip of the asparagus.

JamesMcMinn 10y ago

Given that Spain is still recovering from flooding, cold weather and a bunch of other issues [1] that have made growing vegetables impossible in many areas, that's not really a surprise. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38666752 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38666752

ktzar 10y ago
That's an article from almost 2 months ago.
- JamesMcMinn 10y ago
  ...yes, it is. So what? Vegetables don't just magically appear in minutes - they take weeks or months to grow, so bad winter has an effect which can last for most of the year.
pvaldes 10y ago
> Spain is still recovering from flooding This was only in a small part of Spain, mostly turistic. Those places full of english expatriates are always overrepresented in english newspapers IMHO, giving a false impression. It can seem worst that it is also. Free water means literally free money fallen from the sky and of course those big companies have enough muscle and resources to replace the plastic greenhouses and restart quickly. The winter was not particularly hard. I remember a bad couple of weeks. Not much more. A little chill is good for most fruits. Casually, I has aubergines for dining today. It seems that the problem to find spanish vegetables in the market is solved.

lhopki01 10y ago

Yes anecdotal evidence of one trip to the supermarket which has nothing to do with the very terrible winter in Southern Europe. Time for anecdotal evidence. My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote.

krona 10y ago
This is the UK's largest supermarket chain, so this it's hardly anecdotal evidence; What I said is verifiable, and doesn't rely on my own witness account. Meanwhile, a statement like My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote is completely meaningless.
- lhopki01 10y ago
  It's one datapoint alongside a well know fact that Southern European vegetables are more expensive atm because of a bad winter. You have pointed out one good amongst thousands that was cheaper when it came from outside the EU. I'm sure there are many others but that's irrelevant. Those specific goods does not mean that this is the result of the EU. What everyone is afraid of is what will happen if tariffs are applied to EU goods when they come into the UK.
- JamesMcMinn 10y ago
  > anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research. By definition, it is anecdotal. A single piece of price data observed only by you with no evidence is not proof that EU grown vegetables are more expensive than those from Mexico. To say that someones supermarket bill going up is somehow more anecdotal than "I found asparagus from Spain that cost more than asparagus from Mexico" is absurd.
  - krona 10y ago
    I'm providing empirical evidence of a verifiable claim that is either true or false. You can argue about the rigorousness of the claim, but regardless it can be independently verified.

TheAdamAndChe 10y ago

That may be because the minimum wages are massively different for the two countries, with $0.48/hr in Mexico vs $4.98/hr in Spain[1]. Globalism does exploit the lower standard of living of other countries, after all. That means that even though there are massive tariffs, these "third world" countries can still make a profit because of the abysmal quality of life for its citizens. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count...

krona 10y ago
Of course it's because of wages! The point is, it is because of protectionism that Mexican and African farmers cant sell their products in to the EU at a fair price, and once outside the customs union, the poorest consumers in the UK and the poorest farmers in the world both stand to benefit. Global trade is lifting billions of the poorest people out of poverty, and long may it continue.
- TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
  It's true that globalization is raising the average income of people in many places in the world, but it is also causing an increase in inequality within most countries[1]. It's not fair to the middle class of a country when it needs to compete against a country that doesn't have the same environmental or labor laws that it has. This leads to a race to the bottom and tanks the quality of life for most people, though the capital owners get out ahead. Why can't those countries form their own industries? [1] https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/pdf/c4.pdf https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/pdf/c4.pdf
- danmaz74 10y ago
  Try to tell that to UK farmers. Or blue collars. Or anyone working on producing things.
  - 794CD01 10y ago
    There's not much point in telling the truth to people so personally invested in not listening.

TorKlingberg 10y ago

That's because we are early in the asparagus season, and Mexico is a warmer country. Wait a couple of weeks and you will see mostly Spanish asparagus. A couple of more weeks and it will be British.