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This is disgusting. North Korea deserves not a single dime of Western tourist money. This is literally subsidizing mass murder, torture and famine as a method o

This is disgusting. North Korea deserves not a single dime of Western tourist money. This is literally subsidizing mass murder, torture and famine as a method of social control.

ekianjo 10y ago
This could be seen as an educational visit. This is what an actual dystopia looks like.
- peteretep 10y ago
  Plenty of things that would be educational are both illegal and unethical. Related: https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke-and-the-dogs-lung-animal-experimentation-in-history/ https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke...
- walrus01 10y ago
  The thing is, you can't escape from the guided tour and they only take you to places on list of about 20 approved tourist sites. You can't escape the hotel. So there is no opportunity to wander around the DPRK and actually see the dystopia, you only see the Potemkin village facade.
  - pavement 10y ago
    Okay, point taken. You'll only get to see the artificial air-brushed façade of the nightmare. But, uh, how could a tour of a genuine dystopia actually work any other way? Would a dystopia ever advertise the horrors if its own shortcomings? Could a dystopia adequately prove it's own misery-inducing institutional apparatus to visitors if it tried? And, my god, would you actually want such an experience? A walking tour of a prison camp? Tour guides that explain how they know they will die incarcerated, and that technically, listening to their words is actively benefiting from slave labor? What if you could go on an actual ride-along with a death squad as they disappear a real, live political dissident? Wouldn't paying money for the opportunity to wade in and observe someone else's living hell, represent true sadistic voyeurism, when contrasted against the premise of paying to satisfy a morbid curiosity of what they'll let you see of it?
    - teej 10y ago
      The point is that your precious tourist dollars go towards supporting an oppressive regime so that you can view their citizens in zoo-like conditions. It's a disgusting choice to make.
      - pavement 10y ago
        Most of the people I know of, who would travel there, are not interested in anything beyond the bragging rights of doing things few other people have done. Emphasis on the bragging. It's a trip a person takes to be cooler than the people who will listen to them talk about it. Actually, come to think of it, disgusting totalitarian patronage or not, that's what being on the receiving end of most conversations about someone else's vacation feels like.
dazsnow 10y ago
What an amazingly horrible, ignorant, and hypocritical comment. I presume you've been there and witnessed this mass murder, torture, and famine first-hand? I also presume you can account for never having spent a single cent on any product that may have originated in North Korea (let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries...). I'd like to further presume that you can account for the North Korean government not spending a single cent earned from tourism on supporting the health, education, and general welfare of any of its citizens - normal every day people with jobs and families and interests? If I may make 1 more presumption - the government to which you may pay tax, as well as those to which you've ever contributed to via tourism, trade, or other means, have never spent any money whatsoever on anything that might be deemed unacceptable according to the current Western moral zeitgeist? How does China tourism fare with you? How about Saudi Arabia? Ever paid for anything from either of those countries? While some tourism money obviously does go to into government programmes that most of us are going to disagree with, I don't think that's an argument against North Korean tourism altogether. Such programmes would likely continue with or without tourism money. An agency offering North Korea tourism packages is not only serving a market demand (are you claiming that anyone who is interested in visiting North Korea is "disgusting"?!) but also offering an opportunity for increased understanding. There is value in what they're offering, to both North Korean people (not just their authoritarian government) and the people who visit.
- dingaling 10y ago
  > let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries.. North Korea's exports around $3 billion per year, putting it in the bottom one-third of all trading nations. Of that just under half was in terms of coal supplied to China accounting for a small percentage of Chinese coal consumption. Their other primary exports were weapons & small-arms, statues ( to order! ), illegal drugs and clothing which is thought to be relabelled as 'Made in China' for resale. So whilst it might not be impossible to avoid a Chinese-made product that used some electricity derived from North Korean coal, there's really no difficulty avoiding products made in North Korea and no hypocrisy in avoiding travel there.
jaredklewis 10y ago
Yea, good point. The current policy of complete sanctions against North Korea seems to be working out really well for the people there. We should keep doing that? Trade or tourism sanctions against countries have never had a positive effect for the sanctioned country's citizens. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Japan before WWII, its always the same story: sanctions are great for dictators, terrible for the citizens. Want actual change? Trade with them. Wealthy countries are less militant, not more so.

This is disgusting. North Korea deserves not a single dime of Western tourist money. This is literally subsidizing mass murder, torture and famine as a method of social control.

ekianjo 10y ago

This could be seen as an educational visit. This is what an actual dystopia looks like.

peteretep 10y ago
Plenty of things that would be educational are both illegal and unethical. Related: https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke-and-the-dogs-lung-animal-experimentation-in-history/ https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke...
walrus01 10y ago
The thing is, you can't escape from the guided tour and they only take you to places on list of about 20 approved tourist sites. You can't escape the hotel. So there is no opportunity to wander around the DPRK and actually see the dystopia, you only see the Potemkin village facade.
- pavement 10y ago
  Okay, point taken. You'll only get to see the artificial air-brushed façade of the nightmare. But, uh, how could a tour of a genuine dystopia actually work any other way? Would a dystopia ever advertise the horrors if its own shortcomings? Could a dystopia adequately prove it's own misery-inducing institutional apparatus to visitors if it tried? And, my god, would you actually want such an experience? A walking tour of a prison camp? Tour guides that explain how they know they will die incarcerated, and that technically, listening to their words is actively benefiting from slave labor? What if you could go on an actual ride-along with a death squad as they disappear a real, live political dissident? Wouldn't paying money for the opportunity to wade in and observe someone else's living hell, represent true sadistic voyeurism, when contrasted against the premise of paying to satisfy a morbid curiosity of what they'll let you see of it?
  - teej 10y ago
    The point is that your precious tourist dollars go towards supporting an oppressive regime so that you can view their citizens in zoo-like conditions. It's a disgusting choice to make.
    - pavement 10y ago
      Most of the people I know of, who would travel there, are not interested in anything beyond the bragging rights of doing things few other people have done. Emphasis on the bragging. It's a trip a person takes to be cooler than the people who will listen to them talk about it. Actually, come to think of it, disgusting totalitarian patronage or not, that's what being on the receiving end of most conversations about someone else's vacation feels like.

dazsnow 10y ago

What an amazingly horrible, ignorant, and hypocritical comment. I presume you've been there and witnessed this mass murder, torture, and famine first-hand? I also presume you can account for never having spent a single cent on any product that may have originated in North Korea (let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries...). I'd like to further presume that you can account for the North Korean government not spending a single cent earned from tourism on supporting the health, education, and general welfare of any of its citizens - normal every day people with jobs and families and interests? If I may make 1 more presumption - the government to which you may pay tax, as well as those to which you've ever contributed to via tourism, trade, or other means, have never spent any money whatsoever on anything that might be deemed unacceptable according to the current Western moral zeitgeist? How does China tourism fare with you? How about Saudi Arabia? Ever paid for anything from either of those countries? While some tourism money obviously does go to into government programmes that most of us are going to disagree with, I don't think that's an argument against North Korean tourism altogether. Such programmes would likely continue with or without tourism money. An agency offering North Korea tourism packages is not only serving a market demand (are you claiming that anyone who is interested in visiting North Korea is "disgusting"?!) but also offering an opportunity for increased understanding. There is value in what they're offering, to both North Korean people (not just their authoritarian government) and the people who visit.

dingaling 10y ago
> let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries.. North Korea's exports around $3 billion per year, putting it in the bottom one-third of all trading nations. Of that just under half was in terms of coal supplied to China accounting for a small percentage of Chinese coal consumption. Their other primary exports were weapons & small-arms, statues ( to order! ), illegal drugs and clothing which is thought to be relabelled as 'Made in China' for resale. So whilst it might not be impossible to avoid a Chinese-made product that used some electricity derived from North Korean coal, there's really no difficulty avoiding products made in North Korea and no hypocrisy in avoiding travel there.

jaredklewis 10y ago

Yea, good point. The current policy of complete sanctions against North Korea seems to be working out really well for the people there. We should keep doing that? Trade or tourism sanctions against countries have never had a positive effect for the sanctioned country's citizens. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Japan before WWII, its always the same story: sanctions are great for dictators, terrible for the citizens. Want actual change? Trade with them. Wealthy countries are less militant, not more so.