7 ms·

Visit North Korea

10 points by nafizh 10y ago

peterburkimsher 10y ago
I went with CYTS in 2010. North Korea is a fascinating country. Everything I like (Jesus and technology) is illegal! Young Pioneer Tours are cheaper than Koryo, in case anyone wants to go on a budget.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  > technology Illegal or simply one cannot afford it?
- peteretep 10y ago
  > Young Pioneer Tours PLUS, you get a chance for FREE LIFELONG accomodation![0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier
mc32 10y ago
One has to wonder if they get kickback from the NK gov for bringing in foreign currency --it may well be there is no kickback, but given they are not locals and run the operation from China, that it takes knowing people to organize these guided tours.
bkeroack 10y ago
This is disgusting. North Korea deserves not a single dime of Western tourist money. This is literally subsidizing mass murder, torture and famine as a method of social control.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  This could be seen as an educational visit. This is what an actual dystopia looks like.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    Plenty of things that would be educational are both illegal and unethical. Related: https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke-and-the-dogs-lung-animal-experimentation-in-history/ https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke...
  - walrus01 10y ago
    The thing is, you can't escape from the guided tour and they only take you to places on list of about 20 approved tourist sites. You can't escape the hotel. So there is no opportunity to wander around the DPRK and actually see the dystopia, you only see the Potemkin village facade.
    - pavement 10y ago
      Okay, point taken. You'll only get to see the artificial air-brushed façade of the nightmare. But, uh, how could a tour of a genuine dystopia actually work any other way? Would a dystopia ever advertise the horrors if its own shortcomings? Could a dystopia adequately prove it's own misery-inducing institutional apparatus to visitors if it tried? And, my god, would you actually want such an experience? A walking tour of a prison camp? Tour guides that explain how they know they will die incarcerated, and that technically, listening to their words is actively benefiting from slave labor? What if you could go on an actual ride-along with a death squad as they disappear a real, live political dissident? Wouldn't paying money for the opportunity to wade in and observe someone else's living hell, represent true sadistic voyeurism, when contrasted against the premise of paying to satisfy a morbid curiosity of what they'll let you see of it?
      - teej 10y ago
        The point is that your precious tourist dollars go towards supporting an oppressive regime so that you can view their citizens in zoo-like conditions. It's a disgusting choice to make.
        pavement 10y ago
- dazsnow 10y ago
  What an amazingly horrible, ignorant, and hypocritical comment. I presume you've been there and witnessed this mass murder, torture, and famine first-hand? I also presume you can account for never having spent a single cent on any product that may have originated in North Korea (let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries...). I'd like to further presume that you can account for the North Korean government not spending a single cent earned from tourism on supporting the health, education, and general welfare of any of its citizens - normal every day people with jobs and families and interests? If I may make 1 more presumption - the government to which you may pay tax, as well as those to which you've ever contributed to via tourism, trade, or other means, have never spent any money whatsoever on anything that might be deemed unacceptable according to the current Western moral zeitgeist? How does China tourism fare with you? How about Saudi Arabia? Ever paid for anything from either of those countries? While some tourism money obviously does go to into government programmes that most of us are going to disagree with, I don't think that's an argument against North Korean tourism altogether. Such programmes would likely continue with or without tourism money. An agency offering North Korea tourism packages is not only serving a market demand (are you claiming that anyone who is interested in visiting North Korea is "disgusting"?!) but also offering an opportunity for increased understanding. There is value in what they're offering, to both North Korean people (not just their authoritarian government) and the people who visit.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    > let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries.. North Korea's exports around $3 billion per year, putting it in the bottom one-third of all trading nations. Of that just under half was in terms of coal supplied to China accounting for a small percentage of Chinese coal consumption. Their other primary exports were weapons & small-arms, statues ( to order! ), illegal drugs and clothing which is thought to be relabelled as 'Made in China' for resale. So whilst it might not be impossible to avoid a Chinese-made product that used some electricity derived from North Korean coal, there's really no difficulty avoiding products made in North Korea and no hypocrisy in avoiding travel there.
- jaredklewis 10y ago
  Yea, good point. The current policy of complete sanctions against North Korea seems to be working out really well for the people there. We should keep doing that? Trade or tourism sanctions against countries have never had a positive effect for the sanctioned country's citizens. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Japan before WWII, its always the same story: sanctions are great for dictators, terrible for the citizens. Want actual change? Trade with them. Wealthy countries are less militant, not more so.
hiesenburg 10y ago
I wonder if Otto Warmbier used this tour company... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/asia/north-korea-otto-warmbier.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/asia/north-korea-ot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier
- icpmacdo 10y ago
  Well in the wikipedia article you linked "Warmbier traveled to North Korea as a tourist with Young Pioneer Tours". I would not go to N. Korea, your pretty close to directly funding the regime doing that IMO. Its funny I notice I am born almost the exact same time as Otto, I know its possible that I could have done something that dumb he just got some unlucky results.
acjohnson55 10y ago
Trippy. I would consider going. I've been to Cuba (pre detente) and the West Bank. Both experiences were enlightening. I have significantly higher reservations about the government of DPRK and the ethics of visiting, for sure.
- peteretep 10y ago
  > I've been to Cuba (pre detente) > and the West Bank Both of which can conceivably have a net positive impact on the people there. > DPRK Not even once.
  - acjohnson55 10y ago
    To be honest, I don't travel to have a positive impact on the people at the destination. While that would be nice, I'm pretty sure it's not the reality. I travel to experience the world and learn. At best, my social impact comes from being able to be a trusted source of information for people who don't get around so much.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Overtonwindow 10y ago
I don't think I could do this in good conscience. It would be like touring a Nazi concentration camp. In 1940.

10 points by nafizh 10y ago

I went with CYTS in 2010. North Korea is a fascinating country. Everything I like (Jesus and technology) is illegal! Young Pioneer Tours are cheaper than Koryo, in case anyone wants to go on a budget.

ekianjo 10y ago
> technology Illegal or simply one cannot afford it?
peteretep 10y ago
> Young Pioneer Tours PLUS, you get a chance for FREE LIFELONG accomodation![0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

mc32 10y ago

One has to wonder if they get kickback from the NK gov for bringing in foreign currency --it may well be there is no kickback, but given they are not locals and run the operation from China, that it takes knowing people to organize these guided tours.

bkeroack 10y ago

This is disgusting. North Korea deserves not a single dime of Western tourist money. This is literally subsidizing mass murder, torture and famine as a method of social control.

ekianjo 10y ago
This could be seen as an educational visit. This is what an actual dystopia looks like.
- peteretep 10y ago
  Plenty of things that would be educational are both illegal and unethical. Related: https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke-and-the-dogs-lung-animal-experimentation-in-history/ https://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2015/05/04/robert-hooke...
- walrus01 10y ago
  The thing is, you can't escape from the guided tour and they only take you to places on list of about 20 approved tourist sites. You can't escape the hotel. So there is no opportunity to wander around the DPRK and actually see the dystopia, you only see the Potemkin village facade.
  - pavement 10y ago
    Okay, point taken. You'll only get to see the artificial air-brushed façade of the nightmare. But, uh, how could a tour of a genuine dystopia actually work any other way? Would a dystopia ever advertise the horrors if its own shortcomings? Could a dystopia adequately prove it's own misery-inducing institutional apparatus to visitors if it tried? And, my god, would you actually want such an experience? A walking tour of a prison camp? Tour guides that explain how they know they will die incarcerated, and that technically, listening to their words is actively benefiting from slave labor? What if you could go on an actual ride-along with a death squad as they disappear a real, live political dissident? Wouldn't paying money for the opportunity to wade in and observe someone else's living hell, represent true sadistic voyeurism, when contrasted against the premise of paying to satisfy a morbid curiosity of what they'll let you see of it?
    - teej 10y ago
      The point is that your precious tourist dollars go towards supporting an oppressive regime so that you can view their citizens in zoo-like conditions. It's a disgusting choice to make.
      - pavement 10y ago
dazsnow 10y ago
What an amazingly horrible, ignorant, and hypocritical comment. I presume you've been there and witnessed this mass murder, torture, and famine first-hand? I also presume you can account for never having spent a single cent on any product that may have originated in North Korea (let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries...). I'd like to further presume that you can account for the North Korean government not spending a single cent earned from tourism on supporting the health, education, and general welfare of any of its citizens - normal every day people with jobs and families and interests? If I may make 1 more presumption - the government to which you may pay tax, as well as those to which you've ever contributed to via tourism, trade, or other means, have never spent any money whatsoever on anything that might be deemed unacceptable according to the current Western moral zeitgeist? How does China tourism fare with you? How about Saudi Arabia? Ever paid for anything from either of those countries? While some tourism money obviously does go to into government programmes that most of us are going to disagree with, I don't think that's an argument against North Korean tourism altogether. Such programmes would likely continue with or without tourism money. An agency offering North Korea tourism packages is not only serving a market demand (are you claiming that anyone who is interested in visiting North Korea is "disgusting"?!) but also offering an opportunity for increased understanding. There is value in what they're offering, to both North Korean people (not just their authoritarian government) and the people who visit.
- dingaling 10y ago
  > let's point out here that Korea trades a lot with China and China exports a fair amount to other countries.. North Korea's exports around $3 billion per year, putting it in the bottom one-third of all trading nations. Of that just under half was in terms of coal supplied to China accounting for a small percentage of Chinese coal consumption. Their other primary exports were weapons & small-arms, statues ( to order! ), illegal drugs and clothing which is thought to be relabelled as 'Made in China' for resale. So whilst it might not be impossible to avoid a Chinese-made product that used some electricity derived from North Korean coal, there's really no difficulty avoiding products made in North Korea and no hypocrisy in avoiding travel there.
jaredklewis 10y ago
Yea, good point. The current policy of complete sanctions against North Korea seems to be working out really well for the people there. We should keep doing that? Trade or tourism sanctions against countries have never had a positive effect for the sanctioned country's citizens. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Japan before WWII, its always the same story: sanctions are great for dictators, terrible for the citizens. Want actual change? Trade with them. Wealthy countries are less militant, not more so.

hiesenburg 10y ago

I wonder if Otto Warmbier used this tour company... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/asia/north-korea-otto-warmbier.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/asia/north-korea-ot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

icpmacdo 10y ago
Well in the wikipedia article you linked "Warmbier traveled to North Korea as a tourist with Young Pioneer Tours". I would not go to N. Korea, your pretty close to directly funding the regime doing that IMO. Its funny I notice I am born almost the exact same time as Otto, I know its possible that I could have done something that dumb he just got some unlucky results.

acjohnson55 10y ago

Trippy. I would consider going. I've been to Cuba (pre detente) and the West Bank. Both experiences were enlightening. I have significantly higher reservations about the government of DPRK and the ethics of visiting, for sure.

peteretep 10y ago
> I've been to Cuba (pre detente) > and the West Bank Both of which can conceivably have a net positive impact on the people there. > DPRK Not even once.
- acjohnson55 10y ago
  To be honest, I don't travel to have a positive impact on the people at the destination. While that would be nice, I'm pretty sure it's not the reality. I travel to experience the world and learn. At best, my social impact comes from being able to be a trusted source of information for people who don't get around so much.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Overtonwindow 10y ago

I don't think I could do this in good conscience. It would be like touring a Nazi concentration camp. In 1940.