7 ms·

Does apple not see how this will end up badly for them? Apple, you're scaring off talented developers; soon the only people who will be left are people who can

by blhack 16y ago

Does apple not see how this will end up badly for them? Apple, you're scaring off talented developers; soon the only people who will be left are people who can afford to have gobs and gobs of apps rejected.

stcredzero 16y ago
Mindshare is The foundation. Apple squanders it. Google gets this part right.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  There are lots of complaints about how Android version incompatibilities makes it a pain for developers. The iPhone is a joy to program for, but the app store policy sucks. Android is a bitch to program for, but the app story policy is great. I'd say they're about neck and neck.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    iPhone - Has greed on it's side, good environment, not too open, squanders mindshare Android - Not the 1st choice of the greedy, too many compatibility issues, very open, makes the right moves for mindshare. By this analysis, Android seems to be on a winning trajectory in the long run.
    - ThomPete 16y ago
      That surely depends on how you define winning. Apple actually makes money with their mobile products. Not sure do or will do.
  - acangiano 16y ago
    > Android is a bitch to program for, but the app story policy is great. The Android Market policy is only great if you are from one of the few countries that can publish app on it. It amazes me that this aspect is always left out while discussing the topic.
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      Us Americans can be notoriously American-centric. But you're right. I'll have to remember that for future discussions, thanks.
    - wwortiz 16y ago
      Well at least you have the option to publish an app outside of the market, like on it's own website. Though I know it really doesn't solve the problem the fact that you aren't completely locked out of legitimate phones is nice.
    - ableal 16y ago
      [searches a bit, finds this] Supported locations for distributing applications: http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=138294 http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?hl... Supported locations for merchants: http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?answer=150324 http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?an...
Timmy_C 16y ago
I don't think these types of stories are scaring off anybody since we've been reading about App Store rejections for the last two years and it seems that companies and developers continue to want to make apps for iPad/iPod/iPhone. It sounds to me like these developers didn't read the app store guidelines. Don't make apps that do what Apple devices can already do natively. They made an app that was too much like a desktop and got rejected. That seems entirely reasonable.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- blhack 16y ago
  >They made an app that was too much like a desktop and got rejected. That seems entirely reasonable. You're not serious, are you. If so, :(.
- alex_c 16y ago
  Trying hard not to downvote just because I disagree so strongly, I don't even know if it's possible to find some common ground for discussion. It sounds to me like these developers didn't read the app store guidelines. I'm getting really sick of that defense for Apple. How exactly do you logically go from "Don't make apps that do what Apple devices can already do natively" to "Thou shalt not make a cool picture frame app"? Yes, it's entirely the app developers' fault, and Apple can never be mistaken. The allmighty App Store Guidelines CLEARLY spell out for developers what they can and cannot do. They are immutable, all-encompassing, never vague, and impossible to misinterpret. If only developers would READ, we would never see any of these stories. Argh. (Have I just been trolled? On HN?)
  - Timmy_C 16y ago
    I'll concede that there may be a jump in logic. And it is upsetting that a developer that plays by the rules gets denied for some unforeseeable reason. But I am tired of reading the same Apple is screwing the developers story. Why so much negativity in this thread?
steveklabnik 16y ago
Apple's thesis is that supply-side economics don't work. Get a ton of buyers in one place, and the supply will work itself out. We'll see how it ends up.
- xexers 16y ago
  Ebay uses this tactic too. Ebay is very good to their buyers but can be ruthless with their sellers. If you google "ebay VERO" you will find thousands of sellers complaining.
- chc 16y ago
  Sounds like they took a page from Microsoft's playbook. I guess they'd know best how well it works.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    Nope, Microsoft has been trying to do the opposite. Remember "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS?"
    - chc 16y ago
      You're saying Windows' appeal to developers is mainly due to Steve Ballmer embarrassing himself onstage and little or nothing to do with how many users the platform has? I find that quite incredible.
      - steveklabnik 16y ago
        No, I'm saying that Microsoft believes that by bringing the best developers to their side, good apps will be made, and then users will follow. That's why he was screaming that. Now, you may disagree with the way that they're going about doing that, but from what I understand, tools like Visual Studio really are best of breed. I don't use IDEs or Windows, so I wouldn't know, but that's just what I hear.
        16y ago
gte910h 16y ago
Honestly, I'd love too see android be a viable competitor, but until it is, Apple is going to continue reigning. Android is still ultrafragmented, and none of the tablets are out yet (nor will necessarily be that good when they come). Half the iPad development I'm seeing looked for is for B2B apps, not consumer apps.
- Raphael 16y ago
  And how will business apps be viable if you aren't allowed to install your own software?
  - KingOfB 16y ago
    http://developer.apple.com/programs/iphone/enterprise/ http://developer.apple.com/programs/iphone/enterprise/ Basically this allows side loading of business apps to approved business of a large (500+) size. I'm not sure if the apps need to be approved by apple still, but I'm guessing they would.
    - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
      And yet, Apple's opinion on whether an app is appropriate for your company is worthless.
      - gte910h 16y ago
        I concur. I hope the courts deem them a monopoly and force them to allow alternate app loading mechanisms to all.
    - gte910h 16y ago
      That is not what that program is for. It is only for internally developed applications for use internally. Useless for a vast majority of things.
      - pwhelan 16y ago
chmike 16y ago
The most amazing is that developpers have to pay to develop for Apple. I won't.
- hboon 16y ago
  That's just a cost of business. Minute in the grand scheme of things. Unless you are arguing about freedom to put apps on your own device. That's a different discussion
  - pwhelan 16y ago
    However, for someone like me who is starting to develop for a possible startup idea -- I'm starting with Android. If this doesn't pan out, then other dev will be on Android. I'll do iPhone next then others if it pans out, but if it doesn't? Back to Android...
    - hboon 16y ago
      I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you want to start with Android and if it doesn't work out, go with iPhone? While I understand that currency power can vary quite a bit and have a huge effect here (and I don't know if that affects you), I would say it's generally not a big deal compared to other costs. But another interesting point is there has been suggestions that the subscription fee be much higher, rather than remove it. I am supportive of this. The reasoning behind this is it helps to filter off a certain class of developers that tends to pollute the app store. Part of it is due to the poor discovery facilities of the app store, but making it more exclusive does have it's benefits, and drawbacks, naturally.
      - pwhelan 16y ago
        That was a poorly written post on my part. I am starting out using Android (getting an HTC Incredible soon as well). If I can get things working well with Android and want to start selling apps and/or start a software company for mobile phones -- I will start out with Android. If things go well enough that I am capable of pursuing another platform as well, then I would do the iPhone next but only after Android success. If I were to fail here, I would stick with Android because of the flexibility and I believe there are more opportunities there. I don't see Apple's ecosystem allowing business software to truly thrive on iPhone/iPad in comparison to Android and others -- I also believe this is intentional.

by blhack 16y ago

stcredzero 16y ago

Mindshare is The foundation. Apple squanders it. Google gets this part right.

steveklabnik 16y ago
There are lots of complaints about how Android version incompatibilities makes it a pain for developers. The iPhone is a joy to program for, but the app store policy sucks. Android is a bitch to program for, but the app story policy is great. I'd say they're about neck and neck.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  iPhone - Has greed on it's side, good environment, not too open, squanders mindshare Android - Not the 1st choice of the greedy, too many compatibility issues, very open, makes the right moves for mindshare. By this analysis, Android seems to be on a winning trajectory in the long run.
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    That surely depends on how you define winning. Apple actually makes money with their mobile products. Not sure do or will do.
- acangiano 16y ago
  > Android is a bitch to program for, but the app story policy is great. The Android Market policy is only great if you are from one of the few countries that can publish app on it. It amazes me that this aspect is always left out while discussing the topic.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    Us Americans can be notoriously American-centric. But you're right. I'll have to remember that for future discussions, thanks.
  - wwortiz 16y ago
    Well at least you have the option to publish an app outside of the market, like on it's own website. Though I know it really doesn't solve the problem the fact that you aren't completely locked out of legitimate phones is nice.
  - ableal 16y ago
    [searches a bit, finds this] Supported locations for distributing applications: http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=138294 http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?hl... Supported locations for merchants: http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?answer=150324 http://www.google.com/support/androidmarket/bin/answer.py?an...

Timmy_C 16y ago

I don't think these types of stories are scaring off anybody since we've been reading about App Store rejections for the last two years and it seems that companies and developers continue to want to make apps for iPad/iPod/iPhone. It sounds to me like these developers didn't read the app store guidelines. Don't make apps that do what Apple devices can already do natively. They made an app that was too much like a desktop and got rejected. That seems entirely reasonable.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
blhack 16y ago
>They made an app that was too much like a desktop and got rejected. That seems entirely reasonable. You're not serious, are you. If so, :(.
alex_c 16y ago
Trying hard not to downvote just because I disagree so strongly, I don't even know if it's possible to find some common ground for discussion. It sounds to me like these developers didn't read the app store guidelines. I'm getting really sick of that defense for Apple. How exactly do you logically go from "Don't make apps that do what Apple devices can already do natively" to "Thou shalt not make a cool picture frame app"? Yes, it's entirely the app developers' fault, and Apple can never be mistaken. The allmighty App Store Guidelines CLEARLY spell out for developers what they can and cannot do. They are immutable, all-encompassing, never vague, and impossible to misinterpret. If only developers would READ, we would never see any of these stories. Argh. (Have I just been trolled? On HN?)
- Timmy_C 16y ago
  I'll concede that there may be a jump in logic. And it is upsetting that a developer that plays by the rules gets denied for some unforeseeable reason. But I am tired of reading the same Apple is screwing the developers story. Why so much negativity in this thread?

steveklabnik 16y ago

Apple's thesis is that supply-side economics don't work. Get a ton of buyers in one place, and the supply will work itself out. We'll see how it ends up.

xexers 16y ago
Ebay uses this tactic too. Ebay is very good to their buyers but can be ruthless with their sellers. If you google "ebay VERO" you will find thousands of sellers complaining.
chc 16y ago
Sounds like they took a page from Microsoft's playbook. I guess they'd know best how well it works.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  Nope, Microsoft has been trying to do the opposite. Remember "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS?"
  - chc 16y ago
    You're saying Windows' appeal to developers is mainly due to Steve Ballmer embarrassing himself onstage and little or nothing to do with how many users the platform has? I find that quite incredible.
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      No, I'm saying that Microsoft believes that by bringing the best developers to their side, good apps will be made, and then users will follow. That's why he was screaming that. Now, you may disagree with the way that they're going about doing that, but from what I understand, tools like Visual Studio really are best of breed. I don't use IDEs or Windows, so I wouldn't know, but that's just what I hear.
      - 16y ago

gte910h 16y ago

Honestly, I'd love too see android be a viable competitor, but until it is, Apple is going to continue reigning. Android is still ultrafragmented, and none of the tablets are out yet (nor will necessarily be that good when they come). Half the iPad development I'm seeing looked for is for B2B apps, not consumer apps.

Raphael 16y ago
And how will business apps be viable if you aren't allowed to install your own software?
- KingOfB 16y ago
  http://developer.apple.com/programs/iphone/enterprise/ http://developer.apple.com/programs/iphone/enterprise/ Basically this allows side loading of business apps to approved business of a large (500+) size. I'm not sure if the apps need to be approved by apple still, but I'm guessing they would.
  - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
    And yet, Apple's opinion on whether an app is appropriate for your company is worthless.
    - gte910h 16y ago
      I concur. I hope the courts deem them a monopoly and force them to allow alternate app loading mechanisms to all.
  - gte910h 16y ago
    That is not what that program is for. It is only for internally developed applications for use internally. Useless for a vast majority of things.
    - pwhelan 16y ago

chmike 16y ago

The most amazing is that developpers have to pay to develop for Apple. I won't.

hboon 16y ago
That's just a cost of business. Minute in the grand scheme of things. Unless you are arguing about freedom to put apps on your own device. That's a different discussion
- pwhelan 16y ago
  However, for someone like me who is starting to develop for a possible startup idea -- I'm starting with Android. If this doesn't pan out, then other dev will be on Android. I'll do iPhone next then others if it pans out, but if it doesn't? Back to Android...
  - hboon 16y ago
    I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you want to start with Android and if it doesn't work out, go with iPhone? While I understand that currency power can vary quite a bit and have a huge effect here (and I don't know if that affects you), I would say it's generally not a big deal compared to other costs. But another interesting point is there has been suggestions that the subscription fee be much higher, rather than remove it. I am supportive of this. The reasoning behind this is it helps to filter off a certain class of developers that tends to pollute the app store. Part of it is due to the poor discovery facilities of the app store, but making it more exclusive does have it's benefits, and drawbacks, naturally.
    - pwhelan 16y ago
      That was a poorly written post on my part. I am starting out using Android (getting an HTC Incredible soon as well). If I can get things working well with Android and want to start selling apps and/or start a software company for mobile phones -- I will start out with Android. If things go well enough that I am capable of pursuing another platform as well, then I would do the iPhone next but only after Android success. If I were to fail here, I would stick with Android because of the flexibility and I believe there are more opportunities there. I don't see Apple's ecosystem allowing business software to truly thrive on iPhone/iPad in comparison to Android and others -- I also believe this is intentional.