5 ms·

From Hunter S. Thompson's obituary for Nixon: "Some people will say that words like scum and rotten are wrong for Objective Journalism -- which is true, but th

by tps5 10y ago

From Hunter S. Thompson's obituary for Nixon: "Some people will say that words like scum and rotten are wrong for Objective Journalism -- which is true, but they miss the point. It was the built-in blind spots of the Objective rules and dogma that allowed Nixon to slither into the White House in the first place. He looked so good on paper that you could almost vote for him sight unseen. He seemed so all-American, so much like Horatio Alger, that he was able to slip through the cracks of Objective Journalism. You had to get Subjective to see Nixon clearly, and the shock of recognition was often painful." I don't necessarily disagree with you (or agree with Thompson), but I always liked that quote. I do think "Objective Journalism" is a hard line to toe, and I don't think the NY Times does the worst job with it. Sure, the paper is clearly anti-Trump. My perspective is that this is only really a problem if they fabricate evidence. As long as they're presenting the world as they see it, it's hard to complain. I'd apply that equally to right wing publications.

weberc2 10y ago
That's a good quote indeed! My issue isn't that the media isn't sufficiently objective or that NYT in particular dislikes Trump; the issue is that the media generally is abandoning objectivity as a virtue to strive after, and they're beginning to see it increasingly as an impediment to their (mostly leftist) political activism. One could argue that this new political bias is motivated by an increasingly powerful leftist market, and I would agree to an extent, but given the political composition of journalists (90% are registered Democrats IIRC), I can't imagine they fought too hard to oppose the changing tide. There's a lot more to this of course, and there's fault to be shared on the right, but I haven't the time to opine on the entire landscape.
- triplesec 10y ago
  Unfortunately, you're only opining, and falling for the oldest data error in the media book, in that you think they're biased against your side. Equl numbers of moderates and left-leaning people think that the media are biased to the Right, from their coporate advertising masters. You'll have therefore to bring some data to the table to persuade anyone here.
  - ColanR 10y ago
    > given the political composition of journalists (90% are registered Democrats IIRC) Guess you missed that?
  - alphapapa 10y ago
    > You'll have therefore to bring some data to the table to persuade anyone here. www.newsbusters.org Help yourself.
  - weberc2 10y ago
    I'm definitely opining, and I'm not a conservative. I'm a moderate liberal. I'm also skeptical of your claim about liberal and moderate perceptions of the media. I'm of the impression that claims of liberal bias in the media isn't controversial even among the far left.
- tps5 10y ago
  I think you're right that the "modern" perspective seems to be: "bias is unavoidable, so be clear about your bias." This is why it's not considered wrong for newspapers to endorse candidates, or for the NY Times editorial board to write a weekly admonition to the new administration. I tend to agree with you on some level. I don't necessarily think it's possible to be completely unbiased, but I'd still like it to be the goal. Reuters is pretty good for that sort of thing (for instance they don't use the term terrorism because they see it as a value judgement).
  - alphapapa 10y ago
    > Reuters is pretty good for that sort of thing (for instance they don't use the term terrorism because they see it as a value judgement). I would hope that even journalistic objectivity has some limit, to the point that one could call the slaughter of innocent people wrong. That's a value judgment that should be made. If not, then it would seem that they could not complain if their offices were attacked by evil people, because that would be making a "value judgment" on their actions. It seems like some kind of hypocritical cop-out. Besides that, Reuters is no longer a bastion of objectivity. Their coverage is definitely left-leaning. And since they are a wire agency and their stories are reprinted around the world, it makes their bias even worse, because it seeps into other publications.
    - tps5 10y ago
      The perspective is simply that it isn't the job of the media to say what's right or wrong, just to report what happened. They're not saying "these aren't terrorist attacks" only that the word "terrorist" is editorializing, which isn't their job. My perspective is that it's unclear to me what you gain by describing something as a "terrorist attack" as opposed to just an "attack." I'll make up my own mind whether it's a terrorist attack or not. I find Reuters fairly unbiased, although at the end of the day individual editors and reporters all have individual biases. If you have a recommendation for a less biased news source than Reuters please share.
      - alphapapa 10y ago
Niten 10y ago
> Sure, the paper is clearly anti-Trump. My perspective is that this is only really a problem if they fabricate evidence. As long as they're presenting the world as they see it, it's hard to complain. I mostly agree with that, but it does rub me the wrong way that the New York Times tends to smuggle its views into its reporting, all the while maintaining the false pretense that it is being entirely Objective outside of its opinion pages. In contrast, The Economist is absolutely anti-Trump, but it makes no pretense to the contrary. It owns the fact that the paper as a whole has a free-market, classically liberal point of view, and as a result it's much easier for me to read The Economist's criticisms of Trump with a straight face. (Not that I have any trouble generating my own criticisms of Trump, mind you.)

by tps5 10y ago

weberc2 10y ago

That's a good quote indeed! My issue isn't that the media isn't sufficiently objective or that NYT in particular dislikes Trump; the issue is that the media generally is abandoning objectivity as a virtue to strive after, and they're beginning to see it increasingly as an impediment to their (mostly leftist) political activism. One could argue that this new political bias is motivated by an increasingly powerful leftist market, and I would agree to an extent, but given the political composition of journalists (90% are registered Democrats IIRC), I can't imagine they fought too hard to oppose the changing tide. There's a lot more to this of course, and there's fault to be shared on the right, but I haven't the time to opine on the entire landscape.

triplesec 10y ago
Unfortunately, you're only opining, and falling for the oldest data error in the media book, in that you think they're biased against your side. Equl numbers of moderates and left-leaning people think that the media are biased to the Right, from their coporate advertising masters. You'll have therefore to bring some data to the table to persuade anyone here.
- ColanR 10y ago
  > given the political composition of journalists (90% are registered Democrats IIRC) Guess you missed that?
- alphapapa 10y ago
  > You'll have therefore to bring some data to the table to persuade anyone here. www.newsbusters.org Help yourself.
- weberc2 10y ago
  I'm definitely opining, and I'm not a conservative. I'm a moderate liberal. I'm also skeptical of your claim about liberal and moderate perceptions of the media. I'm of the impression that claims of liberal bias in the media isn't controversial even among the far left.
tps5 10y ago
I think you're right that the "modern" perspective seems to be: "bias is unavoidable, so be clear about your bias." This is why it's not considered wrong for newspapers to endorse candidates, or for the NY Times editorial board to write a weekly admonition to the new administration. I tend to agree with you on some level. I don't necessarily think it's possible to be completely unbiased, but I'd still like it to be the goal. Reuters is pretty good for that sort of thing (for instance they don't use the term terrorism because they see it as a value judgement).
- alphapapa 10y ago
  > Reuters is pretty good for that sort of thing (for instance they don't use the term terrorism because they see it as a value judgement). I would hope that even journalistic objectivity has some limit, to the point that one could call the slaughter of innocent people wrong. That's a value judgment that should be made. If not, then it would seem that they could not complain if their offices were attacked by evil people, because that would be making a "value judgment" on their actions. It seems like some kind of hypocritical cop-out. Besides that, Reuters is no longer a bastion of objectivity. Their coverage is definitely left-leaning. And since they are a wire agency and their stories are reprinted around the world, it makes their bias even worse, because it seeps into other publications.
  - tps5 10y ago
    The perspective is simply that it isn't the job of the media to say what's right or wrong, just to report what happened. They're not saying "these aren't terrorist attacks" only that the word "terrorist" is editorializing, which isn't their job. My perspective is that it's unclear to me what you gain by describing something as a "terrorist attack" as opposed to just an "attack." I'll make up my own mind whether it's a terrorist attack or not. I find Reuters fairly unbiased, although at the end of the day individual editors and reporters all have individual biases. If you have a recommendation for a less biased news source than Reuters please share.
    - alphapapa 10y ago

Niten 10y ago

> Sure, the paper is clearly anti-Trump. My perspective is that this is only really a problem if they fabricate evidence. As long as they're presenting the world as they see it, it's hard to complain. I mostly agree with that, but it does rub me the wrong way that the New York Times tends to smuggle its views into its reporting, all the while maintaining the false pretense that it is being entirely Objective outside of its opinion pages. In contrast, The Economist is absolutely anti-Trump, but it makes no pretense to the contrary. It owns the fact that the paper as a whole has a free-market, classically liberal point of view, and as a result it's much easier for me to read The Economist's criticisms of Trump with a straight face. (Not that I have any trouble generating my own criticisms of Trump, mind you.)