5 ms·

> They have more in common with software developers than with welfare or disability recipients. That was the point of the argument: Will people be the winners

> They have more in common with software developers than with welfare or disability recipients. That was the point of the argument: Will people be the winners and robots the "slaves", or will there be only a few capital owners owning (the fruits of the labors of) not a handful of slaves each, but millions of those modern "slaves" and most people none?

ajmurmann 10y ago
Well there also is the other aspect of personal fulfillment that I think the parent was trying to touch on. I personally have plenty of creative things I'd love to do if I wouldn't have to worry about money. For example I'd love to do significantly more ceramics work, build a video game, explore some glass blowing and maybe even get a economics degree for fun. Others might get depressed and just watch reality TV all day or even develop a drug dependency. Our society is currently very much coupling self worth to career success.
- TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
  Well our career success is kind of important. Healthcare isn't free, housing isn't free, and retirement is very, very expensive. Of course this lack of stability for the lower and middle classes would lead to depression.
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was assuming a scenario where machines automated most work away and our physical needs are taken care off by something like basic income guarantee and low prices due to automation.
- mattnewton 10y ago
  I think it's the low socio-economic status that makes people less creative. It is exhausting and stressful to worry about money, and tv and drugs look a lot better to an exhausted and stressed person. I only have personal anecdotes for evidence of this theory though.
  - spiralx 10y ago
    Poverty has been shown to have a significant effect on IQ - about the same amount as alcoholism according to a study a few years ago: http://www.businessinsider.com/poverty-effect-on-intelligence-2013-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/poverty-effect-on-intelligenc...
    - mattnewton 10y ago
      Thank you, that was a nice read. I'll have to see if I can find competing research, but this theory fits really nicely with my experience.
      - spiralx 10y ago
        If you do I'd be interested as well, perhaps check for articles citing the paper? I've not heard of any more recent research myself.
      - spiralx 10y ago
        I had a look and found these two recent papers seem related... I'm about to read them myself :) Neighborhood Effects on the Long-Term Well-Being of Low-Income Adults (2012) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491569/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491569/ On the psychology of poverty (2014) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262582311_On_the_psychology_of_poverty https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262582311_On_the_ps... Most of the research I found seemed focused on childhood poverty specifically, e.g.: Childhood poverty and recruitment of adult emotion regulatory neurocircuitry https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/10/11/1596/1644154/Childhood-poverty-and-recruitment-of-adult-emotion https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/10/11/1596/1644154/Chi... School Readiness and Self-Regulation: A Developmental Psychobiological Approach http://annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-010814-015221 http://annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-01081... How Poverty Affects Classroom Engagement http://reading4all.com/entries/page/1156 http://reading4all.com/entries/page/1156
noobermin 10y ago
You'd be surprised, you just described a world not far removed from reality today.
- IIIIIIIIIIII 10y ago
  Uhm... I described an "either...or". So, which one? or do you mean one in which inequality already is a problem? Naturally. The question is if robots change it towards more inequality or less.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  There is a big difference. In parts of the ancient world that had mass slavery, slaveholders needed their slaves to produce their wealth, so no matter how they oppressed them, there was a motivation to keep them alive. In the feudal system, lords needed their peasants to produce their wealth, so no matter how they oppressed them, there was a motivation to keep them alive, strong and in growing numbers. In the industrial age, capitalists needed their workers to produce their wealth, so no matter how they tried to oppress them, there was a motivation to keep them from striking and even more so, actively consuming to stimulate the rest of economy. In the new age, whoever (or whatever) is at the top won't need most of humans in any way whatsoever.
  - visarga 10y ago
    As long as they only encourage the use of contraception, and have no plan of killing already born people, it's a good idea to lower the total population of our planet.

ajmurmann 10y ago

Well there also is the other aspect of personal fulfillment that I think the parent was trying to touch on. I personally have plenty of creative things I'd love to do if I wouldn't have to worry about money. For example I'd love to do significantly more ceramics work, build a video game, explore some glass blowing and maybe even get a economics degree for fun. Others might get depressed and just watch reality TV all day or even develop a drug dependency. Our society is currently very much coupling self worth to career success.

TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
Well our career success is kind of important. Healthcare isn't free, housing isn't free, and retirement is very, very expensive. Of course this lack of stability for the lower and middle classes would lead to depression.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was assuming a scenario where machines automated most work away and our physical needs are taken care off by something like basic income guarantee and low prices due to automation.
mattnewton 10y ago
I think it's the low socio-economic status that makes people less creative. It is exhausting and stressful to worry about money, and tv and drugs look a lot better to an exhausted and stressed person. I only have personal anecdotes for evidence of this theory though.
- spiralx 10y ago
  Poverty has been shown to have a significant effect on IQ - about the same amount as alcoholism according to a study a few years ago: http://www.businessinsider.com/poverty-effect-on-intelligence-2013-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/poverty-effect-on-intelligenc...
  - mattnewton 10y ago
    Thank you, that was a nice read. I'll have to see if I can find competing research, but this theory fits really nicely with my experience.
    - spiralx 10y ago
      If you do I'd be interested as well, perhaps check for articles citing the paper? I've not heard of any more recent research myself.
    - spiralx 10y ago
      I had a look and found these two recent papers seem related... I'm about to read them myself :) Neighborhood Effects on the Long-Term Well-Being of Low-Income Adults (2012) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491569/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491569/ On the psychology of poverty (2014) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262582311_On_the_psychology_of_poverty https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262582311_On_the_ps... Most of the research I found seemed focused on childhood poverty specifically, e.g.: Childhood poverty and recruitment of adult emotion regulatory neurocircuitry https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/10/11/1596/1644154/Childhood-poverty-and-recruitment-of-adult-emotion https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/10/11/1596/1644154/Chi... School Readiness and Self-Regulation: A Developmental Psychobiological Approach http://annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-010814-015221 http://annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-01081... How Poverty Affects Classroom Engagement http://reading4all.com/entries/page/1156 http://reading4all.com/entries/page/1156

noobermin 10y ago

You'd be surprised, you just described a world not far removed from reality today.

IIIIIIIIIIII 10y ago
Uhm... I described an "either...or". So, which one? or do you mean one in which inequality already is a problem? Naturally. The question is if robots change it towards more inequality or less.
PeterisP 10y ago
There is a big difference. In parts of the ancient world that had mass slavery, slaveholders needed their slaves to produce their wealth, so no matter how they oppressed them, there was a motivation to keep them alive. In the feudal system, lords needed their peasants to produce their wealth, so no matter how they oppressed them, there was a motivation to keep them alive, strong and in growing numbers. In the industrial age, capitalists needed their workers to produce their wealth, so no matter how they tried to oppress them, there was a motivation to keep them from striking and even more so, actively consuming to stimulate the rest of economy. In the new age, whoever (or whatever) is at the top won't need most of humans in any way whatsoever.
- visarga 10y ago
  As long as they only encourage the use of contraception, and have no plan of killing already born people, it's a good idea to lower the total population of our planet.