4 ms·

> What made you think I agree with all of their bias? Your defense of it. Their entire organization is biased, just like Fox or Breitbart. Why are they "commi

by rfrank 10y ago

> What made you think I agree with all of their bias? Your defense of it. Their entire organization is biased, just like Fox or Breitbart. Why are they "committed to the truth" when conservative outlets are "propaganda"? Do you think conservatives view NYT/CNN bias as "truth telling" or "propaganda"?

x0x0 10y ago
> Do you think conservatives view NYT/CNN bias as "truth telling" or "propaganda"? What on earth do their views have to do with reality?
- rfrank 10y ago
  Hey really great comment that's worth taking seriously!
- rjeli 10y ago
  His point is obvious. Please, please don't comment in bad faith.
brazzledazzle 10y ago
Personally I view Fox and Breitbart as being on a scale of propaganda with Brietbart near the extreme end and Fox somewhere in the middle. But while I don't always agree with The Wall Street Journal or The Economist I don't think they're anything like Fox/Breitbart. There's a difference between bias and propaganda.
- rfrank 10y ago
  > There's a difference between bias and propaganda. Then actually define it, and provide examples of them being literal propaganda. Otherwise the discussion is just a political version of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
  - x0x0 10y ago
    No, facts exist whether you like them or not.
  - brazzledazzle 10y ago
    I think this sort of demand seems reasonable at face value but really has a reductive effect on the conversation. I don't have a catalog of infractions I keep to draw from for Internet debates so I can either compile a list that you might ignore or nitpick apart or just let the conversation die here. I don't need a list or carefully defined criteria to come to the conclusion that a news organization is a propaganda outlet because I'm just some asshole nobody who's just trying to make a point that it's not some party or philosophical allegiance that determines how I view a news or media organization.
    - rfrank 10y ago
      Might want to give this one a shot. http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
      - brazzledazzle 10y ago
        Is there a specific section you think I should focus on? I think his point about agreement being sort of brief and shallow while disagreement forces you to explore ideas that haven't is oddly relevant here. Despite the fact that we're disagreeing even a lively debate between us would actually be shallow because "is Fox News/Breitbart propaganda?" is a dead horse beaten until it's dust. You might be a special exception but I assure you that I, like most people, wouldn't be adding additional insight at all. I'm more than happy to let other people do it, I just don't see the point in participating. I just wanted to let you know that thinking it's just some liberal bias against conservatives that makes people think Fox and Brietbart are propaganda is pigeonholing these folks into a very convenient "idiot" bucket. If it was that simple they'd think that about every conservative media/news organization.
        rfrank 10y ago
alphapapa 10y ago
You're arguing with an example of the blindness that resulted in the public's trust of the media hitting an all-time low and Trump getting elected. One kind of person reasons forward from principles; another kind of person reasons backward from desired results, i.e. that the ends justify the means. It seems that they are simply unable to recognize their own bias, a kind of willful self-deception.

by rfrank 10y ago

x0x0 10y ago

> Do you think conservatives view NYT/CNN bias as "truth telling" or "propaganda"? What on earth do their views have to do with reality?

rfrank 10y ago
Hey really great comment that's worth taking seriously!
rjeli 10y ago
His point is obvious. Please, please don't comment in bad faith.

brazzledazzle 10y ago

Personally I view Fox and Breitbart as being on a scale of propaganda with Brietbart near the extreme end and Fox somewhere in the middle. But while I don't always agree with The Wall Street Journal or The Economist I don't think they're anything like Fox/Breitbart. There's a difference between bias and propaganda.

rfrank 10y ago
> There's a difference between bias and propaganda. Then actually define it, and provide examples of them being literal propaganda. Otherwise the discussion is just a political version of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
- x0x0 10y ago
  No, facts exist whether you like them or not.
- brazzledazzle 10y ago
  I think this sort of demand seems reasonable at face value but really has a reductive effect on the conversation. I don't have a catalog of infractions I keep to draw from for Internet debates so I can either compile a list that you might ignore or nitpick apart or just let the conversation die here. I don't need a list or carefully defined criteria to come to the conclusion that a news organization is a propaganda outlet because I'm just some asshole nobody who's just trying to make a point that it's not some party or philosophical allegiance that determines how I view a news or media organization.
  - rfrank 10y ago
    Might want to give this one a shot. http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
    - brazzledazzle 10y ago
      Is there a specific section you think I should focus on? I think his point about agreement being sort of brief and shallow while disagreement forces you to explore ideas that haven't is oddly relevant here. Despite the fact that we're disagreeing even a lively debate between us would actually be shallow because "is Fox News/Breitbart propaganda?" is a dead horse beaten until it's dust. You might be a special exception but I assure you that I, like most people, wouldn't be adding additional insight at all. I'm more than happy to let other people do it, I just don't see the point in participating. I just wanted to let you know that thinking it's just some liberal bias against conservatives that makes people think Fox and Brietbart are propaganda is pigeonholing these folks into a very convenient "idiot" bucket. If it was that simple they'd think that about every conservative media/news organization.
      - rfrank 10y ago

alphapapa 10y ago

You're arguing with an example of the blindness that resulted in the public's trust of the media hitting an all-time low and Trump getting elected. One kind of person reasons forward from principles; another kind of person reasons backward from desired results, i.e. that the ends justify the means. It seems that they are simply unable to recognize their own bias, a kind of willful self-deception.