4 ms·

Please name the country which achieved its legendary prosperity through a planned economy, protectionism, or a programme of economic isolation.

alphonsegaston 10y ago
I don't think it's as binary as that. Many large prosperous countries (e.g Germany) rely heavily on exports but are still more heavily interventionist and protectionist than the United States. While I'm largely in favor of free trade, it would be somewhat foolish at this point to deny that a trade policy such as ours, so exclusively focused on returns for the Capital class, has pretty bad political consequences. We either have to develop a better education system and social safety net, or subject ourselves to dangerous populist tantrums.
IIIIIIIIIIII 10y ago
Parts of all of these, sometimes many parts, I think South Korea? Japan? USA and GB initially, until there economies were strong and they wanted free trade. It isn't black/white.
CPLX 10y ago
China. My understanding is it's becoming quite well known.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  China's not really all that prosperous by developed-world standards, though, it's just huge. It's like 20% of US prosperity levels, and far more unequal.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    Check back in 10, 20, 30 years when they run the world.
quanticle 10y ago
I'll do you one better and name three. Japan. South Korea. China. All three implemented protectionist tariffs, and industrial policy that involved the government "picking winners and losers".
Chaebixi 10y ago
> Please name the country which achieved its legendary prosperity through a planned economy, protectionism, or a programme of economic isolation. Do you think that free-trade economics represents the perfection of economic thinking? My point is: these stark choices that you and others are presenting are the artifacts of an economic dogma. That dogma shouldn't be confused with the truth and blind us to better ways of thinking. Perhaps getting the most goods for the least money-cost is not in fact the best deal? Perhaps there are other things that should be attended to, even if they're not packaged neatly in a compact ideological framework.
pessimizer 10y ago
The United States, Britain, Germany, and Japan. https://web.archive.org/web/20060106154801/http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=1080 https://web.archive.org/web/20060106154801/http://www.newame... http://fpif.org/kicking_away_the_ladder_the_real_history_of_free_trade/ http://fpif.org/kicking_away_the_ladder_the_real_history_of_... edit: “It is a very common clever device that when anyone has attained the summit of greatness, he kicks away the ladder by which he has climbed up, in order to deprive others of the means of climbing up after him. In this lies the secret of the cosmopolitical doctrine of Adam Smith, and of the cosmopolitical tendencies of his great contemporary William Pitt, and of all his successors in the British Government administrations. "Any nation which by means of protective duties and restrictions on navigation has raised her manufacturing power and her navigation to such a degree of development that no other nation can sustain free competition with her, can do nothing wiser than to throw away these ladders of her greatness, to preach to other nations the benefits of free trade, and to declare in penitent tones that she has hitherto wandered in the paths of error, and has now for the first time succeeded in discovering the truth.” --Friedrich List
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Ha-Joon Chang is quite the champion of List. He was also charmed to hear of a find I'd stumbled across -- a bit of an economic policy edit war between the British editors, and American publishers, of Chambers Encyclopaedia. Seems there was a slight difference of opinion on matters of trade (and other issues). The publisher also produced a number of List's books in the US. https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chambers_encyclopaedia_editorial_statement/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chamber...
Nomentatus 10y ago
China re the planning. (And the countries others have mentioned.) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-16/how-to-win-a-trade-war-with-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-16/how-to-wi... and https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-29/maybe-china-needs-to-learn-the-golden-rule https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-29/maybe-chi...
Spooky23 10y ago
What do you call the US economy today? It's not a free market. 16% of the GDP is healthcare, which is a mix of government price controls and insurance cartels at the state level. 5% of the GDP is military spending. 8% of the GDP is the financial services sector. Basically a third of the economy of the richest nation in the planet with 300M+ people is controlled by a group of leaders who could fit in a midsize during arena.
dredmorbius 10y ago
The United States. Great Britain. France. Germany. Italy. Japan. South Korea. Holland. And this little country you may have heard of, China. Several people have pointed out Ha-Joon Chang's scholarship on this issue, and Friederich List's The National System. I'll point out that there was an amusing little incident in which disagreement over List and free trade policies came to light in the 1870s, in an early encyclopaedia edit revision war. Something I stumbled across on my own: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chambers_encyclopaedia_editorial_statement/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chamber...
- RobertoG 10y ago
  That link was fascinating, thanks.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    I do hope some of my own experience of discovery came through there. I was going through a bunch of Google Books results on "free trade" in the late 19th century, and the encyclopedia popped up. I'd started flipping through it at the Internet Archive, from the beginning, when I came on the Note, which I thought unusual. And so on. It still strikes me as both funny and insightful.

alphonsegaston 10y ago

I don't think it's as binary as that. Many large prosperous countries (e.g Germany) rely heavily on exports but are still more heavily interventionist and protectionist than the United States. While I'm largely in favor of free trade, it would be somewhat foolish at this point to deny that a trade policy such as ours, so exclusively focused on returns for the Capital class, has pretty bad political consequences. We either have to develop a better education system and social safety net, or subject ourselves to dangerous populist tantrums.

IIIIIIIIIIII 10y ago

Parts of all of these, sometimes many parts, I think South Korea? Japan? USA and GB initially, until there economies were strong and they wanted free trade. It isn't black/white.

CPLX 10y ago

China. My understanding is it's becoming quite well known.

fennecfoxen 10y ago
China's not really all that prosperous by developed-world standards, though, it's just huge. It's like 20% of US prosperity levels, and far more unequal.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Check back in 10, 20, 30 years when they run the world.

quanticle 10y ago

I'll do you one better and name three. Japan. South Korea. China. All three implemented protectionist tariffs, and industrial policy that involved the government "picking winners and losers".

Chaebixi 10y ago

> Please name the country which achieved its legendary prosperity through a planned economy, protectionism, or a programme of economic isolation. Do you think that free-trade economics represents the perfection of economic thinking? My point is: these stark choices that you and others are presenting are the artifacts of an economic dogma. That dogma shouldn't be confused with the truth and blind us to better ways of thinking. Perhaps getting the most goods for the least money-cost is not in fact the best deal? Perhaps there are other things that should be attended to, even if they're not packaged neatly in a compact ideological framework.

pessimizer 10y ago

The United States, Britain, Germany, and Japan. https://web.archive.org/web/20060106154801/http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=1080 https://web.archive.org/web/20060106154801/http://www.newame... http://fpif.org/kicking_away_the_ladder_the_real_history_of_free_trade/ http://fpif.org/kicking_away_the_ladder_the_real_history_of_... edit: “It is a very common clever device that when anyone has attained the summit of greatness, he kicks away the ladder by which he has climbed up, in order to deprive others of the means of climbing up after him. In this lies the secret of the cosmopolitical doctrine of Adam Smith, and of the cosmopolitical tendencies of his great contemporary William Pitt, and of all his successors in the British Government administrations. "Any nation which by means of protective duties and restrictions on navigation has raised her manufacturing power and her navigation to such a degree of development that no other nation can sustain free competition with her, can do nothing wiser than to throw away these ladders of her greatness, to preach to other nations the benefits of free trade, and to declare in penitent tones that she has hitherto wandered in the paths of error, and has now for the first time succeeded in discovering the truth.” --Friedrich List

dredmorbius 10y ago
Ha-Joon Chang is quite the champion of List. He was also charmed to hear of a find I'd stumbled across -- a bit of an economic policy edit war between the British editors, and American publishers, of Chambers Encyclopaedia. Seems there was a slight difference of opinion on matters of trade (and other issues). The publisher also produced a number of List's books in the US. https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chambers_encyclopaedia_editorial_statement/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chamber...

Nomentatus 10y ago

China re the planning. (And the countries others have mentioned.) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-16/how-to-win-a-trade-war-with-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-16/how-to-wi... and https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-29/maybe-china-needs-to-learn-the-golden-rule https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-29/maybe-chi...

Spooky23 10y ago

What do you call the US economy today? It's not a free market. 16% of the GDP is healthcare, which is a mix of government price controls and insurance cartels at the state level. 5% of the GDP is military spending. 8% of the GDP is the financial services sector. Basically a third of the economy of the richest nation in the planet with 300M+ people is controlled by a group of leaders who could fit in a midsize during arena.

dredmorbius 10y ago

The United States. Great Britain. France. Germany. Italy. Japan. South Korea. Holland. And this little country you may have heard of, China. Several people have pointed out Ha-Joon Chang's scholarship on this issue, and Friederich List's The National System. I'll point out that there was an amusing little incident in which disagreement over List and free trade policies came to light in the 1870s, in an early encyclopaedia edit revision war. Something I stumbled across on my own: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chambers_encyclopaedia_editorial_statement/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4xe2k1/chamber...

RobertoG 10y ago
That link was fascinating, thanks.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I do hope some of my own experience of discovery came through there. I was going through a bunch of Google Books results on "free trade" in the late 19th century, and the encyclopedia popped up. I'd started flipping through it at the Internet Archive, from the beginning, when I came on the Note, which I thought unusual. And so on. It still strikes me as both funny and insightful.