4 ms·

It's interesting to note that with all this automation the cost of some products hasn't gone down at all. I was recently pricing out a new, mid-size car. Once a

by yardie 10y ago

It's interesting to note that with all this automation the cost of some products hasn't gone down at all. I was recently pricing out a new, mid-size car. Once all the options I wanted were priced in it was in the upper 20s. And this was your standard JA/KOR sedan. Consumer electronics, which has also increasingly automated, has gone down in price in some cases dramatically. People are losing their jobs in the name of efficiency through automation. But that isn't being passed onto the buyers.

maxxxxx 10y ago
Car manufacturers are not that profitable so the question is: Where do the gains from automation go?
- speeder 10y ago
  I am from Brazil... here car manufacturers are wildly profitable, it is not uncommon for some models be sold to final costumers with profit margins after taxes of around 30, 40%. EDIT: also in US in recent years, C-level people had income increases of around 1000%, and mid-level execs of 475%... so lots of money ended in their pockets, many companies that make no profits make no profits because most of what could been profits were used to pay outrageous amounts of money to a small handful of people.
hellogoodbyeeee 10y ago
The car you are buying for $25k today is a lot nicer than the car you would've bought for $25k ten years ago. It is more fuel efficient, safer, and will last longer not to mention it likely comes with features that were completely unheard of a decade ago.
- treehau5 10y ago
  Maybe true with cars, but what about consumer electronics? HVAC systems? Wireless routers? Furniture even? Even clothes. It's all cheap garbage, inflated and marked up.
  - pdelbarba 10y ago
    I can design a wireless router as a side project. I've built my own furniture for fun. I don't think I have the resources to start a car manufacturing line... When the barrier to entry is high, there's no reason to lower prices.
    - cr0sh 10y ago
      Actually, the barrier to entry to build a car isn't that high - it only appears that way. Most of the parts - if not all - are available. All one really needs is the knowledge (internet), the tools ($$$), and the space ($$$$) to build. I have a friend whose father is in his 70s, who builds custom VW vehicles; one of his last vehicles used a shortened chassis and the cab from an old electric truck (might've been a Cushman). He finished that one, and is moving on to another. Plenty of people fabricate rally cars and sand rails using tubular steel and fairly simple tools (tube bender, a notcher, mig welder, grinder, plasma cutter or torch, etc). In many cases one can do this all in their garage (but it is better to have a more dedicated space). Engines tend toward the VW end of things, but nothing says you have to use such an engine; there are plenty of new and used engines and sub-frames to work from. I've considered building something similar to this flatpack truck: http://oxgvt.com/the-ox-all-terrain-vehicle/ http://oxgvt.com/the-ox-all-terrain-vehicle/ I figure that the parts from an old VW Vanagon could provide most of it; that or use some front-wheel drive vehicle, then build the cab-over part. The only real compromise on all of this would be the safety aspect; pretty much any home-brew vehicle is going to be a likely death trap in a real accident, but that is outside the argument of being able build one. There's also the issue of registration and insurance, but this too can be overcome (at least here in the United States - other countries may be more or less lenient/easy to do this). The information is out there to build a vehicle, and fairly cheap too. You just have to be willing to get your hands dirty (and suffer some injuries - it seems any kind of automotive work requires a blood sacrifice, not unlike PC repair).
      - ensiferum 10y ago
        I just wonder how would you ever pass this for road worthiness?
- wazoox 10y ago
  I beg to disagree. My car is a 2009 Volvo S60. The climate controls are far superior to all the tactile screen unusable crap I see on all current cars. I'm not much confident that the new displays replacing the old dials will last as long, too. OK, the GPS in my car is useless, but nobody uses the built-in GPS anyway, but Google maps or Waze so who cares? The only lacking feature is a highly automated cruise-control. That's too bad, but when I see the horrible, horrible UI in my colleague's brand new Mercedes GLC (and the bugs! the bugs! in a 70K€ car!) I don't regret it :)
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    That's the "likely" section addressed. Safer and more fuel efficient is still correct (unless it's a VW).
- yardie 10y ago
  You could say the same for practically any modern appliance, consumer electronics, computer and the price would be 25-50% than 10 years ago. 10 years ago I had a chocolate bar phone that just did email for $99. Now I can get a cheap Android that does way more than email for $50. These gains in technology and automation don't appear to be reflected in car manufacturing. Also the car I bought 10 years ago was $15k. Fuel efficiency hasn't changed that much, safety standards either. But now, to make the price appear appealing I'm expected to make 60 (5 years) payments rather than 38 (3 years).
  - coredog64 10y ago
    > Fuel efficiency hasn't changed that much, safety standards either. CAFE essentially puts a ceiling on fuel economy, so instead of getting a more efficient car of the same size, fuel economy is held constant and the size of the car (or its performance) increases. As for safety, MY2008+ vehicles are required to have TPMS. Next year backup cameras will be required by the NHTSA. It's not a legal requirement, but electronic stability control is available on many more current models than 10 years ago.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  But that's not really due to automation. That's due to R&D.
pdq 10y ago
Nonsense. Cars are more efficient than ever, have more features than ever, and in general as reliable as ever. You cannot just look at the bottom line price and make conclusions that cars are getting more expensive and automation is just adding profits to the manufacturers.
- yardie 10y ago
  And why not? Most sensible people start with a budget and work their way from there. So yes, the price is absolutely a factor. All things being equal if the factory line is becoming more automated then where is the money being spent. It's not being spent in labor, it's not being passed back to consumers, the price of commodities has been relatively stable (steel, plastics, glass).
- lostlogin 10y ago
  > Cars are more efficient than ever. And a lot of that turned out to be crap. The efficiency seems to be improving, but it's not at a particularly impressive rate. Pretty match every other aspect of cars seems to have improved more. My personal favourite is the button that raises windows right up or right down at an extra hard press. I'm happy with that feature, so form opinions with that in mind.
Glyptodon 10y ago
I agree that there seems to be a definite gap in car pricing: things such as the divide of bulb vs. LED brake lights within a single model between trim levels seem less like actual cost adjustment and more like putting crappy stuff in the down-segment trims for the sake of upselling. I'm not sure what margins are "supposed" to be on cars, but I do think there's something weird going on with the models, features, and market segmenting.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
I'm fairly certain cars, like the iPhone, are in large part about signalling status, and this accounts for some weirdness in the market. It might be worth looking at delivery vans instead though even there I've noticed a weird thing recently where traditional auto makers have outright refused to build hybrid or EV trucks, and large organisations have just built their own instead and managed to do so cheaper and better than dedicated manufacturers just by putting together off-the-shelf parts. That seems odd to me, maybe the automakers are distorted by their consumer market?

by yardie 10y ago

maxxxxx 10y ago

Car manufacturers are not that profitable so the question is: Where do the gains from automation go?

speeder 10y ago
I am from Brazil... here car manufacturers are wildly profitable, it is not uncommon for some models be sold to final costumers with profit margins after taxes of around 30, 40%. EDIT: also in US in recent years, C-level people had income increases of around 1000%, and mid-level execs of 475%... so lots of money ended in their pockets, many companies that make no profits make no profits because most of what could been profits were used to pay outrageous amounts of money to a small handful of people.

hellogoodbyeeee 10y ago

The car you are buying for $25k today is a lot nicer than the car you would've bought for $25k ten years ago. It is more fuel efficient, safer, and will last longer not to mention it likely comes with features that were completely unheard of a decade ago.

treehau5 10y ago
Maybe true with cars, but what about consumer electronics? HVAC systems? Wireless routers? Furniture even? Even clothes. It's all cheap garbage, inflated and marked up.
- pdelbarba 10y ago
  I can design a wireless router as a side project. I've built my own furniture for fun. I don't think I have the resources to start a car manufacturing line... When the barrier to entry is high, there's no reason to lower prices.
  - cr0sh 10y ago
    Actually, the barrier to entry to build a car isn't that high - it only appears that way. Most of the parts - if not all - are available. All one really needs is the knowledge (internet), the tools ($$$), and the space ($$$$) to build. I have a friend whose father is in his 70s, who builds custom VW vehicles; one of his last vehicles used a shortened chassis and the cab from an old electric truck (might've been a Cushman). He finished that one, and is moving on to another. Plenty of people fabricate rally cars and sand rails using tubular steel and fairly simple tools (tube bender, a notcher, mig welder, grinder, plasma cutter or torch, etc). In many cases one can do this all in their garage (but it is better to have a more dedicated space). Engines tend toward the VW end of things, but nothing says you have to use such an engine; there are plenty of new and used engines and sub-frames to work from. I've considered building something similar to this flatpack truck: http://oxgvt.com/the-ox-all-terrain-vehicle/ http://oxgvt.com/the-ox-all-terrain-vehicle/ I figure that the parts from an old VW Vanagon could provide most of it; that or use some front-wheel drive vehicle, then build the cab-over part. The only real compromise on all of this would be the safety aspect; pretty much any home-brew vehicle is going to be a likely death trap in a real accident, but that is outside the argument of being able build one. There's also the issue of registration and insurance, but this too can be overcome (at least here in the United States - other countries may be more or less lenient/easy to do this). The information is out there to build a vehicle, and fairly cheap too. You just have to be willing to get your hands dirty (and suffer some injuries - it seems any kind of automotive work requires a blood sacrifice, not unlike PC repair).
    - ensiferum 10y ago
      I just wonder how would you ever pass this for road worthiness?
wazoox 10y ago
I beg to disagree. My car is a 2009 Volvo S60. The climate controls are far superior to all the tactile screen unusable crap I see on all current cars. I'm not much confident that the new displays replacing the old dials will last as long, too. OK, the GPS in my car is useless, but nobody uses the built-in GPS anyway, but Google maps or Waze so who cares? The only lacking feature is a highly automated cruise-control. That's too bad, but when I see the horrible, horrible UI in my colleague's brand new Mercedes GLC (and the bugs! the bugs! in a 70K€ car!) I don't regret it :)
- lostlogin 10y ago
  That's the "likely" section addressed. Safer and more fuel efficient is still correct (unless it's a VW).
yardie 10y ago
You could say the same for practically any modern appliance, consumer electronics, computer and the price would be 25-50% than 10 years ago. 10 years ago I had a chocolate bar phone that just did email for $99. Now I can get a cheap Android that does way more than email for $50. These gains in technology and automation don't appear to be reflected in car manufacturing. Also the car I bought 10 years ago was $15k. Fuel efficiency hasn't changed that much, safety standards either. But now, to make the price appear appealing I'm expected to make 60 (5 years) payments rather than 38 (3 years).
- coredog64 10y ago
  > Fuel efficiency hasn't changed that much, safety standards either. CAFE essentially puts a ceiling on fuel economy, so instead of getting a more efficient car of the same size, fuel economy is held constant and the size of the car (or its performance) increases. As for safety, MY2008+ vehicles are required to have TPMS. Next year backup cameras will be required by the NHTSA. It's not a legal requirement, but electronic stability control is available on many more current models than 10 years ago.
st3v3r 10y ago
But that's not really due to automation. That's due to R&D.

pdq 10y ago

Nonsense. Cars are more efficient than ever, have more features than ever, and in general as reliable as ever. You cannot just look at the bottom line price and make conclusions that cars are getting more expensive and automation is just adding profits to the manufacturers.

yardie 10y ago
And why not? Most sensible people start with a budget and work their way from there. So yes, the price is absolutely a factor. All things being equal if the factory line is becoming more automated then where is the money being spent. It's not being spent in labor, it's not being passed back to consumers, the price of commodities has been relatively stable (steel, plastics, glass).
lostlogin 10y ago
> Cars are more efficient than ever. And a lot of that turned out to be crap. The efficiency seems to be improving, but it's not at a particularly impressive rate. Pretty match every other aspect of cars seems to have improved more. My personal favourite is the button that raises windows right up or right down at an extra hard press. I'm happy with that feature, so form opinions with that in mind.

Glyptodon 10y ago

I agree that there seems to be a definite gap in car pricing: things such as the divide of bulb vs. LED brake lights within a single model between trim levels seem less like actual cost adjustment and more like putting crappy stuff in the down-segment trims for the sake of upselling. I'm not sure what margins are "supposed" to be on cars, but I do think there's something weird going on with the models, features, and market segmenting.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

I'm fairly certain cars, like the iPhone, are in large part about signalling status, and this accounts for some weirdness in the market. It might be worth looking at delivery vans instead though even there I've noticed a weird thing recently where traditional auto makers have outright refused to build hybrid or EV trucks, and large organisations have just built their own instead and managed to do so cheaper and better than dedicated manufacturers just by putting together off-the-shelf parts. That seems odd to me, maybe the automakers are distorted by their consumer market?