4 ms·

Once he develops some stuff for non-Android, non-iPhone devices, he'll laugh at how minor his complaints are.

waterlesscloud 16y ago
That was my first thought, that ye olden days of windows and/or dos programming were much worse. But the market was also much bigger. And software sold for higher prices. Android market is too small and prices too low for the platform to be so fragmented.
pistoriusp 16y ago
I've also have some experience in J2ME/ Symbian development. Reading this guys story made me cringe, it brought back some bad memories. My feeling is that it seems minor now; but it should be focused on. You can't let something like this slide for too long before you've got a piece of junk.
barredo 16y ago
Like Symbian? Just guessing, i'm interested in knowing more
- Daemmerung 16y ago
  Or Windows CE.
  - a1k0n 16y ago
    Or really, any computer supporting OpenGL. This stuff is always an issue: figuring out the correct depth buffer size (not as much of a problem as it used to be), finding the vendor-specific version of the extensions you need to use, different pixel/vertex shader versions which require completely different code... It's always a pain in the ass.
    - SomeCallMeTim 16y ago
      Don't forget the bugs! Apple in particular has done exactly what he's accusing Google of doing: They ignored GL bugs in older versions of OS X, since they were fixed by the newer versions. They go as far as to delete (or hide?) discussion threads from the public Apple forums that talk about bugs they don't want to fix. In their case it's more evil, though: They actually profit by ignoring older bugs, because they sell new versions of the OS to people who get sick of things not working. But as a game developer, we've had to still work around their bugs so as to support the people who haven't upgraded. Story's the same here, except now it's not even an option for the consumer to upgrade (short of jailbreaking their phones in most cases).
  - gcb 16y ago
    i once got a gps with windows CE. i tried to develope a small utility program. it took me a couple days just to figure out the windows CE type i had there.
- briansmith 16y ago
  Yes, Symbian is the platform I was thinking of. Some of the problems can be alleviated by ignoring old devices (N95 era and before) or by ignoring all non-touch devices. But, even then, you have lots of variations between the remaining devices.
  - enjo 16y ago
    Symbian had no fragmentation control..at all. Even within Nokia different teams would randomly change public API's in the most insidious of ways. The real issues on Symbian weren't different models/screen sizes (hell, S60 phones had more or less standardized feature sets). It was the lack of any real control over the platform itself. As a developer you had to constantly deal with functional side-effects changing (and Symbians lack of coherent architecture, design, and quality meant there are a LOT of functional side-effects). So the situation is definitely not Apple-to-Apple's. I really think you need to start thinking about Android in two generations. 1.x was all about getting competitive with the iPhone. From 2.x onwards I think we're going to see much more platform stability. Fewer OS releases and a higher emphasis on maintaining phone compatibility. We've already seen that in the first two releases of the 2.x series.
dieterrams 16y ago
Or he could develop for iPhone devices, and use the freed time to make his apps better. Or start on a new app. Or take a break.
- jarek 16y ago
  Or worry about arcane App Store screening policies.
  - dieterrams 16y ago
    Which he has a very low chance of actually running afoul of. Keep bringing the FUD, folks.
    - jarek 16y ago
      There is a very low chance of a house burning down, but most people still take out insurance policies. Unfortunately no one will sell you insurance against working for two or four weeks and then having it all go useless because some droid at Apple is having a bad day or because Steve is rethinking user experience today. edit: wait, _the_ Dieter Rams? I'm honoured.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
    - easp 16y ago
      Unfortunately, Apple seems to be doing an excellent job creating fear, uncertainty and doubt among developers all on their own. It's no doubt true that most app developers will never run afoul of Apple, but every time Apple yanks an application that it had formerly approved it makes people wonder if it could happen to them.
- alextingle 16y ago
  Maybe Apple won't like his app. Or maybe they'll allow it for a bit, and then can it. Who wants to take that risk?
eli 16y ago
Agreed. J2ME is a nightmare to develop for. Devices with wildly different capabilities and features, many of which are often buggy.
PanMan 16y ago
While I agree (fragmentation on J2ME is hell), that's kind of a weak argument. If things are worse in place A, that's not an argument things could also improve in place B. Certainly if one is a lot newer, and supposedly better.

That was my first thought, that ye olden days of windows and/or dos programming were much worse. But the market was also much bigger. And software sold for higher prices. Android market is too small and prices too low for the platform to be so fragmented.

pistoriusp 16y ago

I've also have some experience in J2ME/ Symbian development. Reading this guys story made me cringe, it brought back some bad memories. My feeling is that it seems minor now; but it should be focused on. You can't let something like this slide for too long before you've got a piece of junk.

barredo 16y ago

Like Symbian? Just guessing, i'm interested in knowing more

Daemmerung 16y ago
Or Windows CE.
- a1k0n 16y ago
  Or really, any computer supporting OpenGL. This stuff is always an issue: figuring out the correct depth buffer size (not as much of a problem as it used to be), finding the vendor-specific version of the extensions you need to use, different pixel/vertex shader versions which require completely different code... It's always a pain in the ass.
  - SomeCallMeTim 16y ago
    Don't forget the bugs! Apple in particular has done exactly what he's accusing Google of doing: They ignored GL bugs in older versions of OS X, since they were fixed by the newer versions. They go as far as to delete (or hide?) discussion threads from the public Apple forums that talk about bugs they don't want to fix. In their case it's more evil, though: They actually profit by ignoring older bugs, because they sell new versions of the OS to people who get sick of things not working. But as a game developer, we've had to still work around their bugs so as to support the people who haven't upgraded. Story's the same here, except now it's not even an option for the consumer to upgrade (short of jailbreaking their phones in most cases).
- gcb 16y ago
  i once got a gps with windows CE. i tried to develope a small utility program. it took me a couple days just to figure out the windows CE type i had there.
briansmith 16y ago
Yes, Symbian is the platform I was thinking of. Some of the problems can be alleviated by ignoring old devices (N95 era and before) or by ignoring all non-touch devices. But, even then, you have lots of variations between the remaining devices.
- enjo 16y ago
  Symbian had no fragmentation control..at all. Even within Nokia different teams would randomly change public API's in the most insidious of ways. The real issues on Symbian weren't different models/screen sizes (hell, S60 phones had more or less standardized feature sets). It was the lack of any real control over the platform itself. As a developer you had to constantly deal with functional side-effects changing (and Symbians lack of coherent architecture, design, and quality meant there are a LOT of functional side-effects). So the situation is definitely not Apple-to-Apple's. I really think you need to start thinking about Android in two generations. 1.x was all about getting competitive with the iPhone. From 2.x onwards I think we're going to see much more platform stability. Fewer OS releases and a higher emphasis on maintaining phone compatibility. We've already seen that in the first two releases of the 2.x series.

dieterrams 16y ago

Or he could develop for iPhone devices, and use the freed time to make his apps better. Or start on a new app. Or take a break.

jarek 16y ago
Or worry about arcane App Store screening policies.
- dieterrams 16y ago
  Which he has a very low chance of actually running afoul of. Keep bringing the FUD, folks.
  - jarek 16y ago
    There is a very low chance of a house burning down, but most people still take out insurance policies. Unfortunately no one will sell you insurance against working for two or four weeks and then having it all go useless because some droid at Apple is having a bad day or because Steve is rethinking user experience today. edit: wait, _the_ Dieter Rams? I'm honoured.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - easp 16y ago
    Unfortunately, Apple seems to be doing an excellent job creating fear, uncertainty and doubt among developers all on their own. It's no doubt true that most app developers will never run afoul of Apple, but every time Apple yanks an application that it had formerly approved it makes people wonder if it could happen to them.
alextingle 16y ago
Maybe Apple won't like his app. Or maybe they'll allow it for a bit, and then can it. Who wants to take that risk?

eli 16y ago

Agreed. J2ME is a nightmare to develop for. Devices with wildly different capabilities and features, many of which are often buggy.

PanMan 16y ago

While I agree (fragmentation on J2ME is hell), that's kind of a weak argument. If things are worse in place A, that's not an argument things could also improve in place B. Certainly if one is a lot newer, and supposedly better.