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How to evaluate job offers: "Do I know someone in it and do they say it's awesome?" Anything else is just bullshit, come on. you're a programmer. network jus

How to evaluate job offers: "Do I know someone in it and do they say it's awesome?" Anything else is just bullshit, come on. you're a programmer. network just a little teeny tiny bit with your peers. you can work wherever you want. why should you be the first person to try an unknown job environment, when you can just join one that is good already? Statistically, nothing else you can possibly do will come close to having as good a result for you. Find out which of your friends are working at awesome places and then just onboard with them. that simple. Now, I realize you were asking about how to evaluate a job offer you've already received! Well, the answer is simple: using the exact methodology above. But how can you do that, you say? How can I evaluate a job offer on the basis of my friends working there, if I don't have any friends working there? You still can. But how! How! It's a logical inconsistency! Nope. Just make a friend!!! If you're in the office, go barge in and apologetically steal 10 minutes of someone's attention, become friends with them and figure out if they're saying the workplace is awesome. Can't do that? You'll have to dig deeper. Network your way into finding someone (by name) who works there. Then figure how to email them and make a friend over email. 100% serious. This is how you actually separate bullshit from reality. You'll be investing many months of your life there. A bit of hustling to make sure you're getting someplace awesome will pay better dividends than anything else you can possibly spend that time doing. EDIT: Downvotes? I've just given you a formula that is all but guaranteed to make you happy.

collyw 10y ago
There are plenty of companies with very small IT departments where it would be next to impossible to network with them. I work in a team of 3.
- logicallee 10y ago
  So? Were the other two on vacation and impossible to reach when you had to make a decision about whether to work there? If you have no way of having any access to either of the other two people on the team, you are just playing with dice. Good for you if you're happy - you could have made a more confident decision if you talked with one of the other two on the team first.
  - collyw 10y ago
    I was the first member of the IT department, so they weren't even working there. It was great when I started, but has gone downhill in the last 6 months.
    - logicallee 10y ago
      >but has gone downhill in the last 6 months. sorry, didn't you just prove my point? But regardless, even if we ignore the part you just added and pretend you're working in a paradise (the impression your first comment gave) - being hired as the first and only member of the IT department is not the situation most people are entering into. I mean, it's like the major problem with bootstrapping your company as a sole founder: although you're your own boss, your boss actually kind of sucks, is bad at managing and communicating tasks and deadlines, and basically he doesn't know what he's doing. :) I would say for obvious reasons my advice doesn't apply as much to first and other very early hires. But if there is a team you would be joining - definitely my advice will give you great results.
      - collyw 10y ago
        >sorry, didn't you just prove my point? Er, no. Because even if the other two had been around then they would have probably said yes its a great place to work, which it was when I started. Things can change relatively quickly, which I would say negates your point even more.
        logicallee 10y ago
        wait a moment. So you are saying that if you received the offer today (posit this) and suppose you followed my suggestion and ended up as part of your due dilligence talking to the other two people: if you talked to them as an outsider, would you come to the misleading conclusion that it's a great place, but the reality is that it's a bad place to work now? I want to be clear that this is what you're saying. It is an interesting claim, to be sure. It is contrary to all of my experience. In particular, I feel you would be able to filter their recommendation through your impression of who they are, so that I do not feel you would come to the wrong conclusion as an outsider. Very interested in your answer to this.
metaphorm 10y ago
I downvoted you for two reasons. 1. the topic of the post is "How do you evaluate a job offer" but you're not phrasing things as if it's your own personal technique, but rather suggesting that everyone ought to do things this way, and if they don't there's something deficient about them. 2. you seem to be willfully ignorant about the very real and very important personality differences that people have. not everyone has (or wants) a huge network of acquaintances in the industry. just because you're an extrovert doesn't mean everyone is, or that what works for you will work for them.
- logicallee 10y ago
  Sorry, I'm simply going to disagree with you. The assumption that you've made, which is that I'm extroverted, is not true. Introverts can exercise extreme willpower and actively build acquaintanceships. I stand by my recommendations for everyone: if you get a job offer, do not accept it until you are acquainted with someone working at that company. Period. Regardless of the level of challenge that this is for you. Even if that means (on your way out of an on-site interview) barging into someone's workspace, interrupting them apologetically, and kindly requesting they spend five minutes talking to you. What's going to happen if you barge in (during your interview) and apologetically interrupt someone you have no business talking with? Are they going to sue you? For what? Doing this, very simply, will give you a very good outcome over the short, medium, and long term. It's the best advice in existence. No other advice is remotely as good. Besides telling you how I evaluate offers, I've given you the best advice that exists. Period. I am claiming no advice in existence is nearly as good. That is an extreme claim and the benefits I've cited justify it. If you disagree, you are wrong. The argument I am using is this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion but I am actively choosing to make this argument, on the strength of its validity. It is, simply speaking, correct. (A glance at my karma and posting history will show that I am serious.) Do this. Don't do anything else suggested by anyone in this thread. (Or at least, not until you do this.) This is the advice that will actually make you happy. It does not require an existing network. You can do it ad-hoc and at the last minute. You are NOT done until you have at least an email acquaintanceship with someone working for that company. Drill that into your life and live it. This determines your happiness over the next 1, 2, 4, 10 and 40 years. Regardless of the level of challenge this poses for you: do it. As you can see, I feel very strongly about this!

collyw 10y ago

There are plenty of companies with very small IT departments where it would be next to impossible to network with them. I work in a team of 3.

logicallee 10y ago
So? Were the other two on vacation and impossible to reach when you had to make a decision about whether to work there? If you have no way of having any access to either of the other two people on the team, you are just playing with dice. Good for you if you're happy - you could have made a more confident decision if you talked with one of the other two on the team first.
- collyw 10y ago
  I was the first member of the IT department, so they weren't even working there. It was great when I started, but has gone downhill in the last 6 months.
  - logicallee 10y ago
    >but has gone downhill in the last 6 months. sorry, didn't you just prove my point? But regardless, even if we ignore the part you just added and pretend you're working in a paradise (the impression your first comment gave) - being hired as the first and only member of the IT department is not the situation most people are entering into. I mean, it's like the major problem with bootstrapping your company as a sole founder: although you're your own boss, your boss actually kind of sucks, is bad at managing and communicating tasks and deadlines, and basically he doesn't know what he's doing. :) I would say for obvious reasons my advice doesn't apply as much to first and other very early hires. But if there is a team you would be joining - definitely my advice will give you great results.
    - collyw 10y ago
      >sorry, didn't you just prove my point? Er, no. Because even if the other two had been around then they would have probably said yes its a great place to work, which it was when I started. Things can change relatively quickly, which I would say negates your point even more.
      - logicallee 10y ago
        wait a moment. So you are saying that if you received the offer today (posit this) and suppose you followed my suggestion and ended up as part of your due dilligence talking to the other two people: if you talked to them as an outsider, would you come to the misleading conclusion that it's a great place, but the reality is that it's a bad place to work now? I want to be clear that this is what you're saying. It is an interesting claim, to be sure. It is contrary to all of my experience. In particular, I feel you would be able to filter their recommendation through your impression of who they are, so that I do not feel you would come to the wrong conclusion as an outsider. Very interested in your answer to this.

metaphorm 10y ago

I downvoted you for two reasons. 1. the topic of the post is "How do you evaluate a job offer" but you're not phrasing things as if it's your own personal technique, but rather suggesting that everyone ought to do things this way, and if they don't there's something deficient about them. 2. you seem to be willfully ignorant about the very real and very important personality differences that people have. not everyone has (or wants) a huge network of acquaintances in the industry. just because you're an extrovert doesn't mean everyone is, or that what works for you will work for them.

logicallee 10y ago
Sorry, I'm simply going to disagree with you. The assumption that you've made, which is that I'm extroverted, is not true. Introverts can exercise extreme willpower and actively build acquaintanceships. I stand by my recommendations for everyone: if you get a job offer, do not accept it until you are acquainted with someone working at that company. Period. Regardless of the level of challenge that this is for you. Even if that means (on your way out of an on-site interview) barging into someone's workspace, interrupting them apologetically, and kindly requesting they spend five minutes talking to you. What's going to happen if you barge in (during your interview) and apologetically interrupt someone you have no business talking with? Are they going to sue you? For what? Doing this, very simply, will give you a very good outcome over the short, medium, and long term. It's the best advice in existence. No other advice is remotely as good. Besides telling you how I evaluate offers, I've given you the best advice that exists. Period. I am claiming no advice in existence is nearly as good. That is an extreme claim and the benefits I've cited justify it. If you disagree, you are wrong. The argument I am using is this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion but I am actively choosing to make this argument, on the strength of its validity. It is, simply speaking, correct. (A glance at my karma and posting history will show that I am serious.) Do this. Don't do anything else suggested by anyone in this thread. (Or at least, not until you do this.) This is the advice that will actually make you happy. It does not require an existing network. You can do it ad-hoc and at the last minute. You are NOT done until you have at least an email acquaintanceship with someone working for that company. Drill that into your life and live it. This determines your happiness over the next 1, 2, 4, 10 and 40 years. Regardless of the level of challenge this poses for you: do it. As you can see, I feel very strongly about this!