4 ms·

But you have literally zero time to enjoy any of those things. You live in the office 80% of the time, your entire life is sitting pretending to be busy, then g

by Asooka 10y ago

But you have literally zero time to enjoy any of those things. You live in the office 80% of the time, your entire life is sitting pretending to be busy, then going "home", where you spend less time than you do at the office, getting a few hours of sleep and eating whatever you can get delivered, which is never really good, then trying to get a few hours of sleep and entering another day of meaningless toil. Your entire life is subjugated. You're practically a serf, with no real control of your own life, owned by a huge corporation that will discard you like wet tissue paper the moment you ask for the privilege of having a human life.

rfrank 10y ago
Nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you do the job or live in the bay area, move and do something else if you don't like it. Trust me, the service worker who commutes on public transit for three hours a day and makes 1/5th a tech salary would love to swap spots with the tech "serfs" if they had a chance.
- kmicklas 10y ago
  Of course, but that doesn't mean both aren't being economically exploited.
  - rfrank 10y ago
    I mean, if you perceive "lack of free time with which to enjoy six figure salary" as economic exploitation, you have a pretty awesome life. The plight of the service worker and the plight of the software engineer aren't in the same galaxy, it's silly to group them together.
    - kmicklas 10y ago
      If the software engineer and the (American) service worker aren't in the same galaxy, then the service worker and the average global worker aren't in the same supercluster.
      - rfrank 10y ago
        And those foreign workers have their very own governments to talk to about that. Who woulda thunk it?!
- pascalxus 10y ago
  It's hardly 1/5th the tech salary. in the bay area, a BART worker can earn more than a Software engineer. Crate operators in new york earn 150K+, approaching 500K with overtime and benefits. And 120K isn't 4 times more than 30K, it's more like 2.5 times more when you factor in federal and CA taxes.
  - cma 10y ago
    What is the crane operator on-job mortality rate compared with a software engineer?
    - avisser 10y ago
      Why limit yourself to on-job? You might be 1% likely to die working software, but 20% more likely to lose 1 year of life due to inactivity. Different people might choose differently.
  - ericd 10y ago
    You cherry-picked two of the most overpaid union jobs.
  - rfrank 10y ago
    Cherry picking aside, minimum wage in CA is $10.50, or about $21,000/yr with the (very large) assumption of 40 hour weeks.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Okay, okay, let's discard the tangential argument, and stay on track shall we? We're talking principles here, and in principle we are all serfs. Some are much better compensated than others, but it doesn't change the underlying principle that spending your life consumed with working is asinine. And yes, life is much more comfortable for all serfs than in ages past. Even those in poverty often have big screen TVs, smart phones, Netflix, cable, game consoles, etc. Of course you have to do what you have to do to survive, but many of us are pissed that there's this arbitrary minimum of 40 hours. You can work a lot more than that, or make a lot more for your 40, but you're pretty much required to work at least 40. Ironically, for many service jobs it's actually hard to get full-time, which necessitates getting multiple part-time jobs (I've been there). So yes, we are all serfs living in various degrees of comfort, but without that which we really crave: freedom. Sure, we could start a business, but most of the capital for doing so (past and present) is held by a very small number of people. Wealth perpetuates wealth, you've got to have money to make money. And you have to have a lot of money to earn your freedom.
  - rfrank 10y ago
    No, we are not all serfs in principle, that argument is absolutely ridiculous. If you're so oppressed by your employer and committed to your own sense of victimhood, move into the woods, start homesteading, and "never work again." At that point you'd probably start calling nature despotic because the resources for you to survive in the woods don't just bring themselves to you. We are nothing like serfs. The thing that's holding you back is your expectations on quality of life, not the hours you work.
aianus 10y ago
> You're practically a serf, with no real control of your own life, owned by a huge corporation that will discard you like wet tissue paper the moment you ask for the privilege of having a human life. To be fair, if you're willing to move somewhere cheap you could easily retire after 15 years as a software engineer in the Bay Area. So it's just ~20% of your life.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  > To be fair, if you're willing to move somewhere cheap you could easily retire after 15 years as a software engineer in the Bay Area. So it's just ~20% of your life. I don't know if this is true. I think my savings would have ended up much larger had i NOT moved to the Bay Area due to the cost of living difference. I make about 1.5X here what I used to in Nowheresville, USA, but my cost of living is 5X. My savings rate here is close to zero whereas I used to actually fund my retirement accounts. It's a complicated problem.
  - astrange 10y ago
    Did you buy a house or move into SF? At $2k/mo rent and the mistaken purchase of a new $19k car, I've paid off all my debt and am saving pretty well around here.
astrange 10y ago
> eating whatever you can get delivered, which is never really good Do you need some restaurant recommendations? Everything I get delivered is great.

by Asooka 10y ago

rfrank 10y ago

Nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you do the job or live in the bay area, move and do something else if you don't like it. Trust me, the service worker who commutes on public transit for three hours a day and makes 1/5th a tech salary would love to swap spots with the tech "serfs" if they had a chance.

kmicklas 10y ago
Of course, but that doesn't mean both aren't being economically exploited.
- rfrank 10y ago
  I mean, if you perceive "lack of free time with which to enjoy six figure salary" as economic exploitation, you have a pretty awesome life. The plight of the service worker and the plight of the software engineer aren't in the same galaxy, it's silly to group them together.
  - kmicklas 10y ago
    If the software engineer and the (American) service worker aren't in the same galaxy, then the service worker and the average global worker aren't in the same supercluster.
    - rfrank 10y ago
      And those foreign workers have their very own governments to talk to about that. Who woulda thunk it?!
pascalxus 10y ago
It's hardly 1/5th the tech salary. in the bay area, a BART worker can earn more than a Software engineer. Crate operators in new york earn 150K+, approaching 500K with overtime and benefits. And 120K isn't 4 times more than 30K, it's more like 2.5 times more when you factor in federal and CA taxes.
- cma 10y ago
  What is the crane operator on-job mortality rate compared with a software engineer?
  - avisser 10y ago
    Why limit yourself to on-job? You might be 1% likely to die working software, but 20% more likely to lose 1 year of life due to inactivity. Different people might choose differently.
- ericd 10y ago
  You cherry-picked two of the most overpaid union jobs.
- rfrank 10y ago
  Cherry picking aside, minimum wage in CA is $10.50, or about $21,000/yr with the (very large) assumption of 40 hour weeks.
laughfactory 10y ago
Okay, okay, let's discard the tangential argument, and stay on track shall we? We're talking principles here, and in principle we are all serfs. Some are much better compensated than others, but it doesn't change the underlying principle that spending your life consumed with working is asinine. And yes, life is much more comfortable for all serfs than in ages past. Even those in poverty often have big screen TVs, smart phones, Netflix, cable, game consoles, etc. Of course you have to do what you have to do to survive, but many of us are pissed that there's this arbitrary minimum of 40 hours. You can work a lot more than that, or make a lot more for your 40, but you're pretty much required to work at least 40. Ironically, for many service jobs it's actually hard to get full-time, which necessitates getting multiple part-time jobs (I've been there). So yes, we are all serfs living in various degrees of comfort, but without that which we really crave: freedom. Sure, we could start a business, but most of the capital for doing so (past and present) is held by a very small number of people. Wealth perpetuates wealth, you've got to have money to make money. And you have to have a lot of money to earn your freedom.
- rfrank 10y ago
  No, we are not all serfs in principle, that argument is absolutely ridiculous. If you're so oppressed by your employer and committed to your own sense of victimhood, move into the woods, start homesteading, and "never work again." At that point you'd probably start calling nature despotic because the resources for you to survive in the woods don't just bring themselves to you. We are nothing like serfs. The thing that's holding you back is your expectations on quality of life, not the hours you work.

aianus 10y ago

> You're practically a serf, with no real control of your own life, owned by a huge corporation that will discard you like wet tissue paper the moment you ask for the privilege of having a human life. To be fair, if you're willing to move somewhere cheap you could easily retire after 15 years as a software engineer in the Bay Area. So it's just ~20% of your life.

ryandrake 10y ago
> To be fair, if you're willing to move somewhere cheap you could easily retire after 15 years as a software engineer in the Bay Area. So it's just ~20% of your life. I don't know if this is true. I think my savings would have ended up much larger had i NOT moved to the Bay Area due to the cost of living difference. I make about 1.5X here what I used to in Nowheresville, USA, but my cost of living is 5X. My savings rate here is close to zero whereas I used to actually fund my retirement accounts. It's a complicated problem.
- astrange 10y ago
  Did you buy a house or move into SF? At $2k/mo rent and the mistaken purchase of a new $19k car, I've paid off all my debt and am saving pretty well around here.

astrange 10y ago

> eating whatever you can get delivered, which is never really good Do you need some restaurant recommendations? Everything I get delivered is great.