7 ms·

I have had startups expect more then the typical 40 hours a week, and yep, I burned out pretty fast. But that's an easy filter: don't work at an early stage sta

I have had startups expect more then the typical 40 hours a week, and yep, I burned out pretty fast. But that's an easy filter: don't work at an early stage startup. Otherwise, it's amazing how little managers actually pay attention to their workers. You're right: you can totally get away with setting strict boundaries in most places, just set the tone early and be consistent and professional.

goalieca 10y ago
I make it a point of asking a few questions about hours and project management wherever I interview. I had an interview once where I asked a manager of an established (10+ years old) company about hours. He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I then asked about project scheduling. It seemed to me that there was no slack planned into the releases. Everyone was allocated 110% with no room for slippage.
- Animats 10y ago
  That's what happens with weak overtime laws. The movie industry, which is unionized, has an established discipline of film scheduling. That's because overruns are very expensive. Software could have this, but doesn't.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  > He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I'd leave the room at that point, indicating that the next interview should be for replacing that persons' position.
  - itamarst 10y ago
    No, you want to get a job offer regardless. Having another offer is good negotiating leverage for the job offer you actually want to accept.
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      It's a bit dangerous to use a job you'd not take under any circumstances as leverage though. It's just like making an alternative offer up. A bluff you might get called on.
      - itamarst 10y ago
        You don't say "I'll walk if you don't meet my terms" if you really want the job. But simply mentioning you have another offer can improve the terms you'll get.
        jomkr 10y ago
        How is that any different from making up that you have another offer?
        avisser 10y ago
        It's way easier to be convincing when it's not a lie.
mjolk 10y ago
edit: Wow, I've gotten some negative responses and I'm not sure why. This isn't a "how can I exploit people" question, it's about making sure my interview process doesn't accidentally result in people that will be unhappy. It takes a lot to compete with incumbents and agreeing to work for a startup is the algebra of pros/cons. > I have had startups expect more then the typical 40 hours a week, and yep, I burned out pretty fast. I'm the head of an early stage startup and have a favor to ask: can you give me advice on how to detect someone with your 40-hours-or-I'll-be-unhappy mindset? I've never heard a candidate employee express anything close to "I'm in at 9AM and expect to be out by 5:30", even if shortly down the road, it becomes clear that they feel their work/life balance is being infringed upon. I don't mean this in any negative way and I envy people that aren't boolean in or out, but people that would feel burned out on 5x10h days (+ sometimes a quick Sunday Slack session) aren't good fits _right now_ for my team. Reliable "I do my 40, put in good work, and I'll be here for years" people are _great_ for much later stage (post-IPO, for instance), but it would deeply bother me if I found out one of my workers was feeling burned out/demotivated.
- jressey 10y ago
  These people who like to work as little as possible are called human beings. Sorry, but you have unreasonable expectations for your team. Think about it. You are asking human beings to make personal sacrifices for no personal gain, but for the sole purpose of making your dream a reality. Honestly, I think you need to find people who find emotional shelter at work, so you could ask if there is any personal trauma they are trying to avoid. You could also consider hiring hourly.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    I'm considering what you say, but it doesn't ring true to my interpersonal experiences at all. > Think about it. You are asking human beings to make personal sacrifices for no personal gain, but for the sole purpose of making your dream a reality. My team has (real) equity and I like to believe they see the worth of the product. What attracted me to startups when I entered the game was the sense of ownership and agency in projects. That and work can/should come with a sense of reward. > so you could ask if there is any personal trauma they are trying to avoid. I think this would be somewhat inappropriate to ask "hey, so do you put in extra hours because you don't feel whole?". Everyone I work with knows they can come to me, even if he/she needs to take his/her house keys and to go to a second location to chat. > You could also consider hiring hourly. There's room for hourly consultants, but that hardly makes a team.

goalieca 10y ago

I make it a point of asking a few questions about hours and project management wherever I interview. I had an interview once where I asked a manager of an established (10+ years old) company about hours. He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I then asked about project scheduling. It seemed to me that there was no slack planned into the releases. Everyone was allocated 110% with no room for slippage.

Animats 10y ago
That's what happens with weak overtime laws. The movie industry, which is unionized, has an established discipline of film scheduling. That's because overruns are very expensive. Software could have this, but doesn't.
alkonaut 10y ago
> He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I'd leave the room at that point, indicating that the next interview should be for replacing that persons' position.
- itamarst 10y ago
  No, you want to get a job offer regardless. Having another offer is good negotiating leverage for the job offer you actually want to accept.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    It's a bit dangerous to use a job you'd not take under any circumstances as leverage though. It's just like making an alternative offer up. A bluff you might get called on.
    - itamarst 10y ago
      You don't say "I'll walk if you don't meet my terms" if you really want the job. But simply mentioning you have another offer can improve the terms you'll get.
      - jomkr 10y ago
        How is that any different from making up that you have another offer?
        avisser 10y ago
        It's way easier to be convincing when it's not a lie.

mjolk 10y ago

edit: Wow, I've gotten some negative responses and I'm not sure why. This isn't a "how can I exploit people" question, it's about making sure my interview process doesn't accidentally result in people that will be unhappy. It takes a lot to compete with incumbents and agreeing to work for a startup is the algebra of pros/cons. > I have had startups expect more then the typical 40 hours a week, and yep, I burned out pretty fast. I'm the head of an early stage startup and have a favor to ask: can you give me advice on how to detect someone with your 40-hours-or-I'll-be-unhappy mindset? I've never heard a candidate employee express anything close to "I'm in at 9AM and expect to be out by 5:30", even if shortly down the road, it becomes clear that they feel their work/life balance is being infringed upon. I don't mean this in any negative way and I envy people that aren't boolean in or out, but people that would feel burned out on 5x10h days (+ sometimes a quick Sunday Slack session) aren't good fits _right now_ for my team. Reliable "I do my 40, put in good work, and I'll be here for years" people are _great_ for much later stage (post-IPO, for instance), but it would deeply bother me if I found out one of my workers was feeling burned out/demotivated.

jressey 10y ago
These people who like to work as little as possible are called human beings. Sorry, but you have unreasonable expectations for your team. Think about it. You are asking human beings to make personal sacrifices for no personal gain, but for the sole purpose of making your dream a reality. Honestly, I think you need to find people who find emotional shelter at work, so you could ask if there is any personal trauma they are trying to avoid. You could also consider hiring hourly.
- mjolk 10y ago
  I'm considering what you say, but it doesn't ring true to my interpersonal experiences at all. > Think about it. You are asking human beings to make personal sacrifices for no personal gain, but for the sole purpose of making your dream a reality. My team has (real) equity and I like to believe they see the worth of the product. What attracted me to startups when I entered the game was the sense of ownership and agency in projects. That and work can/should come with a sense of reward. > so you could ask if there is any personal trauma they are trying to avoid. I think this would be somewhat inappropriate to ask "hey, so do you put in extra hours because you don't feel whole?". Everyone I work with knows they can come to me, even if he/she needs to take his/her house keys and to go to a second location to chat. > You could also consider hiring hourly. There's room for hourly consultants, but that hardly makes a team.