13 ms·

I've been working professionally in IT for about 6 years now and the concept of 'working too little' has never come up from any of my managers. I have a strict

by jressey 10y ago

I've been working professionally in IT for about 6 years now and the concept of 'working too little' has never come up from any of my managers. I have a strict personal policy of working the exact amount of hours discussed upon hiring, and never responding to calls or email outside of those hours. For example I worked at a Fortune 50 with a 37.5 hour workweek and always stuck to that. I even counted the time I spent at lunch. Issue never raised. I am not saying cases exist where workers are asked to work more than their agreed hours. I killed myself in kitchens for a $25k salary before switching to tech. These cases are a problem. My point is that this behavior is often self-imposed. People seem to feel a sense of importance when they overwork themselves. Simply stick to the number of hours you've agreed upon and tell your manager to discuss with their supervisor if they bring it up as a disciplinary issue. This all qualified by being in a position of demand as an engineer. Point is, you'd be surprised with what you can 'get away with.'

dkarapetyan 10y ago
I don't think it is a matter of getting away. I can not be productive (truly productive) for more than 4 hours a day. The rest is just overhead my employer pays to keep me on hand. I guess in theory they could just pay me for those 4 hours as much as they'd pay me for the 8 hours but that's way too much sense for most folks.
- sodapopcan 10y ago
  Ha, I'm the same way. 4-5 hours, I'd say. I was recently very upfront with my employer about this and I managed to finagle myself a deal where they're halving my salary and I'm going down to four hours per day. They said they would have never hired me part time like that but luckily for me they don't want to lose me. May be worth a shot if you don't mind making less money.
- wry_discontent 10y ago
  The remaining time, in my experience, is to coordinate meetings with management. Managers at my company have meetings almost all day. I, however, only have a few meetings per week. They can do meetings for 8 hours just fine, but I can't code for 8 hours. I could go home after 4 hours and be just as productive per week, but I'd miss potential meeting hours. And naturally, they are the ones whom we have to cater to when this kind of divide comes up. http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Totally. I only have about 4-6 of focused mental energy before I'm just taking up space and feeling sleepy or antsy. So these days I head home after six hours in the office. Honestly I hope to eventually get to the point here that if I need a break, change of pace, or am just "done" I can do what makes sense... Take a nap, work from home, whatever.
FussyZeus 10y ago
I respond after hours but that's only because we're a small outfit and it's just me and one other guy on-call. We cover each other as needed, and generally we only really "work" outside hours if something really goes to pot and needs intervention, otherwise it waits until business hours. In the three years I've been here, I can count on one hand how many times I've actually needed to work off the clock, and our boss does appreciate the effort in direct financial ways.
Spooky23 10y ago
All depends on the leadership. In some places, working 9-5 won't get you in trouble, but if you're not around to kibbitz with the management at 6, you're not going anywhere.
- ConceptJunkie 10y ago
  FYI, I think you mean "kibbitz", not "kibbutz". The place I work at seems to respect the work/life balance well. If I get in at 9:00, I'm one of the first people in. If I leave at 6:30, I'm just about the last person out. There are a few people who work odd hours, and people in management who work a lot extra, but I think it's mostly a matter of choice. My boss works a lot of overtime, partly because he's stretched too thin, being a dev manager and responsible for coding being one of the few key people left who originally wrote (and still understands) much of the system, but I also think he likes it that way. He is always very clear that we are not expected to work extra hours under normal circumstances, and I don't believe he's ever actually asked me to work extra in the 2 years or so, I've worked for him (I have a few times, but very seldom.)
- unprepare 10y ago
  because promotions with meaningful market wage based wage increases are still a thing /s
mr_tristan 10y ago
I have had startups expect more then the typical 40 hours a week, and yep, I burned out pretty fast. But that's an easy filter: don't work at an early stage startup. Otherwise, it's amazing how little managers actually pay attention to their workers. You're right: you can totally get away with setting strict boundaries in most places, just set the tone early and be consistent and professional.
- goalieca 10y ago
  I make it a point of asking a few questions about hours and project management wherever I interview. I had an interview once where I asked a manager of an established (10+ years old) company about hours. He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I then asked about project scheduling. It seemed to me that there was no slack planned into the releases. Everyone was allocated 110% with no room for slippage.
  - Animats 10y ago
    That's what happens with weak overtime laws. The movie industry, which is unionized, has an established discipline of film scheduling. That's because overruns are very expensive. Software could have this, but doesn't.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    > He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I'd leave the room at that point, indicating that the next interview should be for replacing that persons' position.
    - itamarst 10y ago
      No, you want to get a job offer regardless. Having another offer is good negotiating leverage for the job offer you actually want to accept.
      - alkonaut 10y ago
        It's a bit dangerous to use a job you'd not take under any circumstances as leverage though. It's just like making an alternative offer up. A bluff you might get called on.
geofft 10y ago
How has your career progress been in terms of promotions / raises? At my last job I was directly told that part of why my bonus amount was lowered was my attempt to self-limit my hours (which is a good part of why I left right after that review). They weren't thinking about it as a disciplinary issue, but it was clear that all the people who were doing well at the company were those who put in long hours, even if those hours didn't involve working.
- jressey 10y ago
  Great question. I killed in my first few years at that Fortune 50, then stalled because I was on an unfit team and continually pressed my colleagues. Learned a lot from that, but I digress. I did some contracting where I worked ~50, because the pay was hourly. Now I have a great full-time spot making about double where I started out of college. I'm glad you left and hope you found something better!
- Pigo 10y ago
  This is where a good company culture could make a difference. I have family, and I don't miss real life because someone decided to have a meeting at 7. No one stops me, but I know the people who always stay will progress further and faster, I only have my skill to rely on.
st3v3r 10y ago
I cannot put the blame on workers who have the fear of God put in them that, if they don't kill themselves for their job, they won't be able to provide for their families. This is a management failure, full stop.
hamstercat 10y ago
Couldn't agree more. At the beginning of my career, I used to do unpaid overtime because everyone did it, but that stopped after a year when I realized that I didn't have to do it in order to deliver my projects. It may have limited my growth at that company, but changing company every few years is a much better career plan salary-wise, at least until you get to a more senior position.
- rconti 10y ago
  If anything, I've found that your time and boundaries are MORE respected if you respect them yourself. Overworking yourself is a sure way not to a promotion but to having even more work dumped on you.
CoolGuySteve 10y ago
For me it's not time per week worked that wears, but vacation time. Scheduling your life around the 2 or 3 weeks that US employers give is madness. When you do take the vacation, you're expected to be reachable by email. But if you ask for more vacation when you're hired, you're told you're not high enough on some invisible seniority list despite all your previous years of experience working other places.
- Ascetik 10y ago
  Don't forget, you have to use half of that vacation time to go to the dentist, doctor, car repair, visit your dying grandmother, funerals, taking care of kids while your wife is sick, etc... Yes, 2-3 weeks is total trash. Employers just view us as cogs in the wheel, not as human beings with human needs anymore. You get punished for having to take time to do personal things. It is completely maniacal. I had to use 1 week of my 2 weeks PTO to go support my wife having a child in the hospital. It was complete BS. I was so angry at my boss, furiously angry that he would treat me and my family with such utter disrespect as to take away my hard-earned vacation time simply because my wife needed my support. Paternity leave? What's that?
  - noxToken 10y ago
    US based only: I know it's not PTO, but there are certain qualifying events that allow you to take extended leave from work without repercussion. It includes childbirth and medical conditions where a family member needs care. It's the Family Medical Leave Act[0]. The shitty part is that it's unpaid, so if you can't afford to take 1/2/3 month(s) of absence without pay, it's useless to you. [0]: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/fmla https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/fmla
    - Ascetik 10y ago
      >and work at a location where the company employs 50 or more employees within 75 miles Well, I work for a small MSP, so... unfortunately the government screwed me. Surprise, surprise. Either way, unpaid paternity leave is still ridiculous, no other country in the world does that that I'm aware of.
lojack 10y ago
From what I've seen, its more of a culture thing than anything. I've never been explicitly told I'm not working enough, or that I need to work late, or anything like that. You just see your coworkers answering emails at all hours of the night, and working late, and in a constant state of crunch mode. A lot of this even seems self imposed, some people seem to get a thrill out of it, and seemingly brag about how much work their doing, or how late they work. Then they get additional praise for putting in the work. It's easy to get dragged in to this too. There's a sense of guilt that comes when you're only working your 40 hour week and everyone else around you is putting in 60 hour weeks constantly. You start to feel as if you can alleviate their suffering if you only put in an extra five or ten hours.
- Humdeee 10y ago
  I meet up every week for beers with some long time friends. I seem to be the only one who works 40 hours, and I get chastised for it. Called lazy, good for nothing, etc., you name it. I don't care, I smile and sip my beer. I tell them we'll see if their opinion changes upon life reflection while in their final hospital bed.
  - 36bydesign 10y ago
    Your friends sound like assholes
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      Huh? He said he meets up for beers with his long-time friends. It's not his friends chastising him for this, it's his cow-orkers or managers. Sounds like he needs to look for a new job to me. The best thing to do in a case like this is to find a new job, and time your giving notice at the old job so that it's right in the middle of a big crunch. Of course, don't bother working very hard during this 2 weeks, if they even keep you around. If anyone complains, tell them they're lazy if they're not willing to pick up the slack for you leaving and work 20 hours a day. Assholes.
      - 10y ago
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
>Point is, you'd be surprised with what you can 'get away with.' Two problems with that. 1. You get away with x until you can't. Lots of people don't have easy lateral moves to other companies like techies do, so being told to stay late isn't anything they can fight. 2. Advancement is still a thing. If you're the guy clocking out at 4:30 but everyone else stays until 6, your boss will notice and that might hurt your chances of advancement regardless of how "good" you think your work is. Those guys staying to 6 are playing the long game to be noticed and get promoted and a raise. Sure maybe at age 25, making low-end money is great, then you want a kid and a decent home and now you're wondering why you can't get promoted. >People seem to feel a sense of importance when they overwork themselves. This goes against everything I've seen. People act a certain way because they feel presured to. Everyone is busy with their self-interest. We don't want to stay late or remote in at night. We do that because we more or less have to. As someone who has worked in both hardcore and lax environments, I can guarantee you none of this is optional in a former. Getting into a latter took me 10 years. Good jobs where you're seen as a professional with a life outside work are sadly lacking.
- amyjess 10y ago
  Please keep in mind that not everyone cares about advancement. I'm childfree, and I have zero interest in climbing the corporate ladder. I work so I can pay my rent and afford food, and that's about it. I'm just not a career-minded person.
lr4444lr 10y ago
Simply stick to the number of hours you've agreed upon From my limited experience, the employment contracts for us salaried people state quite clearly that availability outside of the "office hours" is to be expected in the vague but neverending "emergencies", "company deadlines", "business needs", "results-oriented tasks", etc. What you're describing - for salaried employees - exists only in government as far as I've seen.
- itamarst 10y ago
  I've negotiated <40 hour workweeks, and stuck to working that. I've also worked a normal 40 hour workweek, and stuck that. It's quite possible.
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Same here. I just set a <= 40 schedule and stick to it like glue. I get my shit done and stick to my boundaries and that's that.
  - ntsplnkv3 10y ago
    You need to be strict about it. It's amazing how many "emergencies" aren't emergencies. If I have plans I have plans. If there are loads of "emergencies" then that is the result of poor planning and management. Lots of managers I have worked with back off when I decline. Having said that, not everyone is in a position to be strict about it. It needs to be put into law or hashed out during the hiring process.
- zippergz 10y ago
  Are you in the US? I've never been in a salaried role in a US tech company that has a contract. And as a salaried employee who has worked at a bunch of companies, I've always enforced a good work/life balance for myself, and I've done quite well.
  - lr4444lr 10y ago
    Yes. The specific hours aren't in the contract; it specifies following your manager's policy dictate on that matter, with some form of the definitions I gave that justify contingencies.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
gdulli 10y ago
> I've been working professionally in IT for about 6 years now and the concept of 'working too little' has never come up from any of my managers It wouldn't come back to you that directly. Sure, people don't get fired for doing the bare minimum. It takes the form of other people seeming more engaged with their jobs than you do, and the consequences you'd expect. There's a middle ground where you don't sacrifice quality of life but don't do the bare minimum.
thescribe 10y ago
Just this last week my boss strongly suggested I should stay far past forty because it'd look bad if only one team was going home on time. I've had several jobs where it was strongly implied I could work unpaid overtime or never get promoted.

by jressey 10y ago

dkarapetyan 10y ago

I don't think it is a matter of getting away. I can not be productive (truly productive) for more than 4 hours a day. The rest is just overhead my employer pays to keep me on hand. I guess in theory they could just pay me for those 4 hours as much as they'd pay me for the 8 hours but that's way too much sense for most folks.

sodapopcan 10y ago
Ha, I'm the same way. 4-5 hours, I'd say. I was recently very upfront with my employer about this and I managed to finagle myself a deal where they're halving my salary and I'm going down to four hours per day. They said they would have never hired me part time like that but luckily for me they don't want to lose me. May be worth a shot if you don't mind making less money.
wry_discontent 10y ago
The remaining time, in my experience, is to coordinate meetings with management. Managers at my company have meetings almost all day. I, however, only have a few meetings per week. They can do meetings for 8 hours just fine, but I can't code for 8 hours. I could go home after 4 hours and be just as productive per week, but I'd miss potential meeting hours. And naturally, they are the ones whom we have to cater to when this kind of divide comes up. http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Totally. I only have about 4-6 of focused mental energy before I'm just taking up space and feeling sleepy or antsy. So these days I head home after six hours in the office. Honestly I hope to eventually get to the point here that if I need a break, change of pace, or am just "done" I can do what makes sense... Take a nap, work from home, whatever.

FussyZeus 10y ago

I respond after hours but that's only because we're a small outfit and it's just me and one other guy on-call. We cover each other as needed, and generally we only really "work" outside hours if something really goes to pot and needs intervention, otherwise it waits until business hours. In the three years I've been here, I can count on one hand how many times I've actually needed to work off the clock, and our boss does appreciate the effort in direct financial ways.

Spooky23 10y ago

All depends on the leadership. In some places, working 9-5 won't get you in trouble, but if you're not around to kibbitz with the management at 6, you're not going anywhere.

ConceptJunkie 10y ago
FYI, I think you mean "kibbitz", not "kibbutz". The place I work at seems to respect the work/life balance well. If I get in at 9:00, I'm one of the first people in. If I leave at 6:30, I'm just about the last person out. There are a few people who work odd hours, and people in management who work a lot extra, but I think it's mostly a matter of choice. My boss works a lot of overtime, partly because he's stretched too thin, being a dev manager and responsible for coding being one of the few key people left who originally wrote (and still understands) much of the system, but I also think he likes it that way. He is always very clear that we are not expected to work extra hours under normal circumstances, and I don't believe he's ever actually asked me to work extra in the 2 years or so, I've worked for him (I have a few times, but very seldom.)
unprepare 10y ago
because promotions with meaningful market wage based wage increases are still a thing /s

mr_tristan 10y ago

I have had startups expect more then the typical 40 hours a week, and yep, I burned out pretty fast. But that's an easy filter: don't work at an early stage startup. Otherwise, it's amazing how little managers actually pay attention to their workers. You're right: you can totally get away with setting strict boundaries in most places, just set the tone early and be consistent and professional.

goalieca 10y ago
I make it a point of asking a few questions about hours and project management wherever I interview. I had an interview once where I asked a manager of an established (10+ years old) company about hours. He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I then asked about project scheduling. It seemed to me that there was no slack planned into the releases. Everyone was allocated 110% with no room for slippage.
- Animats 10y ago
  That's what happens with weak overtime laws. The movie industry, which is unionized, has an established discipline of film scheduling. That's because overruns are very expensive. Software could have this, but doesn't.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  > He expected all employees to put in more than 8 hours most days. I'd leave the room at that point, indicating that the next interview should be for replacing that persons' position.
  - itamarst 10y ago
    No, you want to get a job offer regardless. Having another offer is good negotiating leverage for the job offer you actually want to accept.
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      It's a bit dangerous to use a job you'd not take under any circumstances as leverage though. It's just like making an alternative offer up. A bluff you might get called on.

geofft 10y ago

How has your career progress been in terms of promotions / raises? At my last job I was directly told that part of why my bonus amount was lowered was my attempt to self-limit my hours (which is a good part of why I left right after that review). They weren't thinking about it as a disciplinary issue, but it was clear that all the people who were doing well at the company were those who put in long hours, even if those hours didn't involve working.

jressey 10y ago
Great question. I killed in my first few years at that Fortune 50, then stalled because I was on an unfit team and continually pressed my colleagues. Learned a lot from that, but I digress. I did some contracting where I worked ~50, because the pay was hourly. Now I have a great full-time spot making about double where I started out of college. I'm glad you left and hope you found something better!
Pigo 10y ago
This is where a good company culture could make a difference. I have family, and I don't miss real life because someone decided to have a meeting at 7. No one stops me, but I know the people who always stay will progress further and faster, I only have my skill to rely on.

st3v3r 10y ago

I cannot put the blame on workers who have the fear of God put in them that, if they don't kill themselves for their job, they won't be able to provide for their families. This is a management failure, full stop.

hamstercat 10y ago

Couldn't agree more. At the beginning of my career, I used to do unpaid overtime because everyone did it, but that stopped after a year when I realized that I didn't have to do it in order to deliver my projects. It may have limited my growth at that company, but changing company every few years is a much better career plan salary-wise, at least until you get to a more senior position.

rconti 10y ago
If anything, I've found that your time and boundaries are MORE respected if you respect them yourself. Overworking yourself is a sure way not to a promotion but to having even more work dumped on you.

CoolGuySteve 10y ago

For me it's not time per week worked that wears, but vacation time. Scheduling your life around the 2 or 3 weeks that US employers give is madness. When you do take the vacation, you're expected to be reachable by email. But if you ask for more vacation when you're hired, you're told you're not high enough on some invisible seniority list despite all your previous years of experience working other places.

Ascetik 10y ago
Don't forget, you have to use half of that vacation time to go to the dentist, doctor, car repair, visit your dying grandmother, funerals, taking care of kids while your wife is sick, etc... Yes, 2-3 weeks is total trash. Employers just view us as cogs in the wheel, not as human beings with human needs anymore. You get punished for having to take time to do personal things. It is completely maniacal. I had to use 1 week of my 2 weeks PTO to go support my wife having a child in the hospital. It was complete BS. I was so angry at my boss, furiously angry that he would treat me and my family with such utter disrespect as to take away my hard-earned vacation time simply because my wife needed my support. Paternity leave? What's that?
- noxToken 10y ago
  US based only: I know it's not PTO, but there are certain qualifying events that allow you to take extended leave from work without repercussion. It includes childbirth and medical conditions where a family member needs care. It's the Family Medical Leave Act[0]. The shitty part is that it's unpaid, so if you can't afford to take 1/2/3 month(s) of absence without pay, it's useless to you. [0]: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/fmla https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/fmla
  - Ascetik 10y ago
    >and work at a location where the company employs 50 or more employees within 75 miles Well, I work for a small MSP, so... unfortunately the government screwed me. Surprise, surprise. Either way, unpaid paternity leave is still ridiculous, no other country in the world does that that I'm aware of.

lojack 10y ago

From what I've seen, its more of a culture thing than anything. I've never been explicitly told I'm not working enough, or that I need to work late, or anything like that. You just see your coworkers answering emails at all hours of the night, and working late, and in a constant state of crunch mode. A lot of this even seems self imposed, some people seem to get a thrill out of it, and seemingly brag about how much work their doing, or how late they work. Then they get additional praise for putting in the work. It's easy to get dragged in to this too. There's a sense of guilt that comes when you're only working your 40 hour week and everyone else around you is putting in 60 hour weeks constantly. You start to feel as if you can alleviate their suffering if you only put in an extra five or ten hours.

Humdeee 10y ago
I meet up every week for beers with some long time friends. I seem to be the only one who works 40 hours, and I get chastised for it. Called lazy, good for nothing, etc., you name it. I don't care, I smile and sip my beer. I tell them we'll see if their opinion changes upon life reflection while in their final hospital bed.
- 36bydesign 10y ago
  Your friends sound like assholes
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    Huh? He said he meets up for beers with his long-time friends. It's not his friends chastising him for this, it's his cow-orkers or managers. Sounds like he needs to look for a new job to me. The best thing to do in a case like this is to find a new job, and time your giving notice at the old job so that it's right in the middle of a big crunch. Of course, don't bother working very hard during this 2 weeks, if they even keep you around. If anyone complains, tell them they're lazy if they're not willing to pick up the slack for you leaving and work 20 hours a day. Assholes.
    - 10y ago

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

>Point is, you'd be surprised with what you can 'get away with.' Two problems with that. 1. You get away with x until you can't. Lots of people don't have easy lateral moves to other companies like techies do, so being told to stay late isn't anything they can fight. 2. Advancement is still a thing. If you're the guy clocking out at 4:30 but everyone else stays until 6, your boss will notice and that might hurt your chances of advancement regardless of how "good" you think your work is. Those guys staying to 6 are playing the long game to be noticed and get promoted and a raise. Sure maybe at age 25, making low-end money is great, then you want a kid and a decent home and now you're wondering why you can't get promoted. >People seem to feel a sense of importance when they overwork themselves. This goes against everything I've seen. People act a certain way because they feel presured to. Everyone is busy with their self-interest. We don't want to stay late or remote in at night. We do that because we more or less have to. As someone who has worked in both hardcore and lax environments, I can guarantee you none of this is optional in a former. Getting into a latter took me 10 years. Good jobs where you're seen as a professional with a life outside work are sadly lacking.

amyjess 10y ago
Please keep in mind that not everyone cares about advancement. I'm childfree, and I have zero interest in climbing the corporate ladder. I work so I can pay my rent and afford food, and that's about it. I'm just not a career-minded person.

lr4444lr 10y ago

Simply stick to the number of hours you've agreed upon From my limited experience, the employment contracts for us salaried people state quite clearly that availability outside of the "office hours" is to be expected in the vague but neverending "emergencies", "company deadlines", "business needs", "results-oriented tasks", etc. What you're describing - for salaried employees - exists only in government as far as I've seen.

itamarst 10y ago
I've negotiated <40 hour workweeks, and stuck to working that. I've also worked a normal 40 hour workweek, and stuck that. It's quite possible.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Same here. I just set a <= 40 schedule and stick to it like glue. I get my shit done and stick to my boundaries and that's that.
- ntsplnkv3 10y ago
  You need to be strict about it. It's amazing how many "emergencies" aren't emergencies. If I have plans I have plans. If there are loads of "emergencies" then that is the result of poor planning and management. Lots of managers I have worked with back off when I decline. Having said that, not everyone is in a position to be strict about it. It needs to be put into law or hashed out during the hiring process.
zippergz 10y ago
Are you in the US? I've never been in a salaried role in a US tech company that has a contract. And as a salaried employee who has worked at a bunch of companies, I've always enforced a good work/life balance for myself, and I've done quite well.
- lr4444lr 10y ago
  Yes. The specific hours aren't in the contract; it specifies following your manager's policy dictate on that matter, with some form of the definitions I gave that justify contingencies.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

gdulli 10y ago

> I've been working professionally in IT for about 6 years now and the concept of 'working too little' has never come up from any of my managers It wouldn't come back to you that directly. Sure, people don't get fired for doing the bare minimum. It takes the form of other people seeming more engaged with their jobs than you do, and the consequences you'd expect. There's a middle ground where you don't sacrifice quality of life but don't do the bare minimum.

thescribe 10y ago

Just this last week my boss strongly suggested I should stay far past forty because it'd look bad if only one team was going home on time. I've had several jobs where it was strongly implied I could work unpaid overtime or never get promoted.