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“Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing and Expecting Different Results”
- janwillemb 10y agoWhile debugging an application I often repeat the same thing three or more times, because I'm not 100% sure I'm doing it exactly the same way. And I think that it's often very hard to define "the same thing". And that's the magic behind problem-solving for non-technical friends: they already tried the same thing, "why does it always work when you try it"?
- nhebb 10y agoWell, whom ever coined the phrase, they obviously never got a disc read error on a PS2.
- Mister_Snuggles 10y agoNor worked with modern computers. I've had many experiences where doing "the same thing" results in a different outcome each time. Of course, that ignores the whole ton of context that isn't immediately obvious - the state of the program, the state of things running in the OS, the state of the data in the database, etc.
- mort96 10y agoMulti threaded programming man. I've lots of times had a bug which just sometimes occurs, and the easiest way to reproduce it is to just run the exact same program with the same inputs over and over until it randomly decides to not work.
- jdironman 10y agoI wonder if it comes down to humans actually believing they can control what is basically an electric signal for its life time, if that makes sense. 01001101 01100001 01111001 01100010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01101001 01101110 01110011 01100001 01101110 01100101
- LeonB 10y agoI decoded this by pasting it into http://www.roubaixinteractive.com/PlayGround/Binary_Conversion/Binary_To_Text.asp http://www.roubaixinteractive.com/PlayGround/Binary_Conversi... (I won't spoil the answer)
- BoorishBears 10y agoI'd expect someone who went through the trouble of decoding it to share the meaning but maybe that's insane.
- masklinn 10y agoI often keep doing the same thing and pray for the same result. My computer usually tells me to get bent. Which in a way fits the original quote.
- code_duck 10y agoThat's where this aphorism falls short - defining what is the "same" actions or results is complex, when meaning is dependent upon context and context is constantly changing unpredictably.
- Boothroid 10y agoBeautiful. Or a tape load error on a ZX Spectrum!
- Pigo 10y ago..or blown on a Nintendo game cartridge.
- maaaats 10y agoOr programmed with unpure functions, haha.
- wtetzner 10y agoMaybe using impure functions is insane? :)
- code_duck 10y agoWindows 98 regularly produced different results from what appeared to be the same input.
- timgilbert 10y agoOr trained for a marathon, or practiced playing chess to improve their skills.
- anotherevan 10y agoOr plugged in a USB cable.
- MichailP 10y agoI agree, but we are also slaves of habit. It takes conscious effort to break out of bad habit, and in context of insanity, or some milder variations of it, one will surely lack clear, focused and non self-defeating frame of mind needed for such effort.
- awinter-py 10y agoExperimentation and practice both consist of repeating the same behavior. If you beat your head against the wall enough times sometimes the wall gives way. It's not useful to expect to be successful on the first try.
- theprotocol 10y agoBut the circumstances having changed (the wall gets progressively weaker with each attempt) can be taken to mean that you aren't quite "doing the same thing" and so this terrible quote sadly lives on in the minds of the pedantic.
- halomru 10y agoBy that definition, in the real world you never do the same thing twice. Your environment always changes (in fact there are several natural laws dictating that it does). From the pedantic viewpoint the quote may be true, but then it doesn't say anything useful anymore.
- theprotocol 10y agoWe're in agreement on that, and that's why this quote is terrible and amounts to nothing.
- bowlich 10y ago“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” ― Heraclitus (I thought this quote was Xeno, but the internet says I'm wrong)
- awinter-py 10y agofair point -- we are subtly varying our practice attempts and the world is subtly changing, and sometimes those trends intersect in such a way that the clouds part.
- jerf 10y agoI dislike this quote under the best of circumstances anyhow, regardless of its provenance, because it is also true that it is insane, or at least, irrational, to do the same thing over and over again and expect the same results, if anything about the relevant parts of the world are changing. People are usually using this quote in complicated contexts for things embedded in the real world where this is always the case. (If you're about to leap up and start going on about the scientific method, bear in mind that the difficulty in doing this properly and the rather extreme efforts that must often be undertaken to conduct the "same" experiment precisely because it is not a thing that happens automatically is itself testimony to how correct I am here, not a contradiction.) There's a distortion introduced by English here which implicitly draws a dichotomy between "doing the same thing" and "doing the different thing" as if this is drawn from a set of two possibilities, but in fact there's a whole universe of possibilities of which "the thing you just did" is a tiny particular point. Both these formulations are actually correct because if you are doing a thing that is failing and has failed several times, there is quite likely no particular reason to believe that the world around you is going to change in the probably-very-precise way necessary to make it work. But as the world changes, the "same" thing you've been doing is also likely to go out of date because over time, it isn't the same thing. You may be performing the same action, but the context has shifted and the world is no longer what it was back when your action worked. Anyhow, I just avoid the saying entirely. It is very rarely usefully applicable.
- theprotocol 10y ago>I dislike this quote under the best of circumstances anyhow I came here to post the same sentiment. The form I dislike most is "The definition of insanity is..." because it further compounds the fallacy by reinforcing the unearned appearance of rigorousness. It really is a specious quote.
- leeoniya 10y ago> You may be performing the same action, but the context has shifted and the world is no longer what it was back when your action worked. this has always been my annoyance with this quote. context matters.
- craigyk 10y ago
- adtac 10y agoExcept when it comes to inserting USB drives. All hail USB-C!
- visarga 10y agoStochastic processes by definition behave differently while doing the same thing.
- jzymbaluk 10y agoStochastic processes are basically the definition of insanity though right?
- yorwba 10y agoBut if you repeat the same stochastic process over and over, your expectation of what happens the next time should reflect what happened all the times before. If it doesn't, you are not applying probability theory correctly. Like a gambler who keeps betting, although he keeps losing more than he wins. Whether it is actually insane is another matter, but it definitely isn't smart.
- grabcocque 10y agoThis the sort of thing Einstein might have believed when was going through his quantum mechanics denialist phase. Suffice to say the universe proved him, and fans of the quote, very wrong.
- AstralStorm 10y agoThe actual quote from the time is "God does not play dice" with a good rebuttal by Bohr.
- redwards510 10y agoThis saying is spammed all over rehab and recovery (AA/NA) groups. If you hear someone saying it, odds are high that is where they picked it up, especially if they say it a lot like it conveys some deep wisdom or something.
- Insomn3ak 10y agoNever been to any rehab and recovery groups, but I used to hear this all the time in real estate training, and self-help seminars. These days, it's life coaches who love this quote.
- bandrami 10y agoThe intersection of all five of those sets is surprisingly high
- kristianp 10y agoI'm starting a self-help seminar for real-estate agents on ice. I hope you're right.
- GalacticDomin8r 10y agoThat's called NA.
- mortenjorck 10y agoIn the context of substance abuse, it's not hard to see the original implication of the now-largely meaningless aphorism: People trying to beat an addiction have to work very hard to keep from falling back into the habit. An addicted person will often find him or herself doing the same things (hanging out with the same enablers, doing the same activities that surround substance abuse) and expecting things will be "different this time." Thus the admonition that someone is "insane" if they expect change when they are doing the very same things they did when they were dependent.
- ddlatham 10y agoWhile in some constrained circumstances, expecting the same actions to result in different outcomes may be outcomes, it has always seemed a terrible way to define insanity. The quotation has always rubbed me wrong for that reason.
- falcolas 10y agoHmm. They're missing a Dilbert citation from 2004, which is where I first heard this saying. http://dilbert.com/strip/2004-02-01 http://dilbert.com/strip/2004-02-01 Of course, he doesn't attempt to claim that it's his creation, so perhaps it's not a good citation. Still, a good comic strip (and far too relevant to our field).
- mholmes680 10y agoI think Scott Adams, of all people, would argue that the context under which something is done twice is more important to its outcome. Pre-suade someone one way, then tell them A, and you will get B. Pre-suade them another way, tell them A, and you will get C.
- haddr 10y agoIf I'm making a step forward, and keep doing the same thing, it will lead me to different places.
- js2 10y agoIn case you don't wish to click through: In conclusion, based on current evidence the saying originated in one of the twelve-step communities. Anonymity is greatly valued in these communities, and no specific author has been identified by the many researchers who have explored the provenance of this adage. The linkage to Albert Einstein occurred many years after his death and is unsupported.
- caleblloyd 10y agoI can't help but think of this quote every time I hit refresh on my dev environment after getting a 500 Internal Server Error.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- unabst 10y agoThis statement is about a specific type of behavior conducted often by a specific type of person. It's the person that believes they are not stupid, that they are right, and that the world is at fault, when actually they're just doing it wrong. But it's their own ego and arrogance that would have them repeating themselves only to repeat the same mistake over and over and over and over. It's the person who feels entitled to the world correcting itself, over them correcting themselves. As with any blanket statement, it does not apply always. But this one is profound and true when it does. I know such people. And I've also caught myself in the act more than once. In those instances, it's absolutely true. This quote has saved me more than once.
- losteverything 10y agoThis is a marker quote.
- pier25 10y agoHe missed a reference to Far Cry 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc
- ErikAugust 10y agoYeah, to which I would say: Isn't the world always in flux?
- crawfordcomeaux 10y agoThis quote presupposes insanity is worth defining. In my experience, judgment plagues addicts & they need less of it, not more. Injecting judgment at the beginning of a recovery slogan seems like the author's continuing to apply judgments and expecting different results.
- AstralStorm 10y agoI think the quote is actually the definition of training. Insanity is actually continuing doing a thing despite it being detrimental or not bringing desired results. (Disregarding the cause though.)
- jonbarker 10y agoActually all founders are 'insane' because growth often happens after building and launching several failures. See Scott Adams' insight on this.
- blahman2 10y agoOften times, sayings such as this one are not meant to tell you 'DA TRUTH', but to provoke you to think differently. To all the logic warriors here - a sound argument is not always a true one. Damn... sometimes I wonder what will come first - computers becoming human, or humans becoming computers.
- randyrand 10y agoNo, it's most likely a threading issue.
- mrfusion 10y agoOne time I hit a vending machine three times and on the third time my snack came out. Am I insane?
- Pica_soO 10y agoInsanity is training NN on social network data, and let the generated Personas with the highest Person binding factor loose on people in danger to quit, hidden behind "annonymous faces". Insanity is repeating the same thing - expecting the same results on what usually fails the turing test.
- pvaldes 10y ago"Mastering is Doing the same thing and expecting different results". (Just my 2 cents of quote)
- wu-ikkyu 10y agoActually, insanity is whatever the state/authority says it is. Runaway slaves were considered insane because they had Drapetomania. Sexual deviancy (i.e. masturbation) has also long been considered a form of insanity. Have you used cannbis multiple times? Then you have a mental illness, according to the DSM. Basically anything that goes against the stereotypical social order can be deemed insanity to some degree.
- AzzieElbab 10y agoThats not insansanity, that's devops
- emptybits 10y agoFrom a purely functional programming perspective, yes. In reality, global state may have changed. So, no. i.e. What we refer to as "the same thing" often isn't, in a non-FP world.
- Tharre 10y agoIt's still insanity, unless you know what has changed or at least that something relevant is different this time. That's not to say that insanity doesn't work sometimes.
- cnocito 10y agoIt's not insanity. Since time invariance is more of an abstract construct than a natural occurrence, I think you all but but guarantees that the same action will eventually yield a different result.
- contravariant 10y agoIf you expect things to turn out differently you will often be disappointed though.
- cnocito 10y agoThat's a function of your expectations. People get sad when they don't win the lotto but they don't celebrate every day they don't get hit by a car. It's not the odds, it's the expectations that are off.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- GalacticDomin8r 10y agoThis link is more about the meaning of the quote rather than its attribution: http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2006/10/the-definition-of-insanity-is.html http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2006/10/the-definition... That saying has always grated on me as fundamentally wrong, and that link provides some insight into it.
- skeltoac 10y agoMy memory of L. Ron Hubbard's recorded lectures has faded but I recall him saying these words many years before they entered the NA canon. Too bad the transcripts are as well guarded as they are. It might appear in similar form in Dianetics or Science of Survival, both published early 1950's.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- mathattack 10y agoI had always attributed this to Deming, but I can't find any evidence that he said it either.
- stillsut 10y ago> Has anyone anywhere in the poetry of the two worlds ever seen such complete idiocy? These ‘Ahs’ and ‘Ohs,’ this want of comprehension of the simplest remarks, this repetition four or five times of the same imbecile expressions, gives the truest conceivable clinical picture of incurable cretinism. These parts precisely those most extolled by Maeterlinck’s admirers. Even though he was publishing in 1890's, it's clear that Max Nordau would have been right at home here on HN.
- sAbakumoff 10y agoIt was in Big Bang Theory: "Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. By that definition, Penny is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs."