8 ms·

Mandating the use of an obsolete technology (taxi meter, when a smartphone + app + backend has the same capability) seems like sensible regulation to you ? That

by ovi256 10y ago

Mandating the use of an obsolete technology (taxi meter, when a smartphone + app + backend has the same capability) seems like sensible regulation to you ? That regulation was tailor-made to shut down Uber operations, as a favour to the taxi lobby.

chopin 10y ago
Afaik a taxi-meter is an approved device, at least somewhat tamper-resistant. Smartphone + app + backend is none of these.
- Grue3 10y ago
  Is it tamper-resistant to a taxi driver driving in circles to screw over clueless tourists?
  - 50CNT 10y ago
    They're not even tamper resistant to clickers, which add additional pulses to the output of the tachometer the meter relies on to calculate fares.
- Cthulhu_ 10y ago
  Those are at least verifiable by 3rd parties - in Uber's case, both the driver's and passengers' smartphones should match up in terms of what route they took. I guess a sophisticated enough malicious driver could set up a GPS spoof in their car, but honestly if they can do that they're working in the wrong industry.
- sitepodmatt 10y ago
  Depends where I guess, certainly in Asia fast-running meters are not uncommon. To say a taxi meter is secure is like doing javascript client-side validation and no server-side whilst disabling right click. And approved by who? Vetted cryptographers?
- tyingq 10y ago
  The most popular taxi cheat is to the take the long way around. Meters don't help you there. Also, meters don't show you the full trip price before you commit. Uber could perhaps fiddle around with map data, but the history would have to show the correct origin and destination, or it would be noticed. It's trivially easy, and free, to audit against Google maps. I don't trust Uber to be ethical, but cheating in this space would just be corporate suicide...they would easily be caught.
  - HeavenBanned 10y ago
    The taxi lobby is alive and well in these and other internet forums. They come out full-force en masse to shit all over Uber. There is a battle being waged behind the scenes never forget that for one second. And that PR game is played on the internet every single day. I don't love Uber, but the criticism levied against it on a daily basis are bordering on overkill if not pure shilling for the taxi cos. Mountains are made out of molehills routinely on all the news I see and hear about Uber. Yet investors continue to flock because this is the end for taxis, and maybe in the future when self-driving-cars become a thing, car ownership in general. Why own a car when I could just rent one from Uber when I need it on schedule? The writing's on the wall.
- harryh 10y ago
  Who cares? Why is this the sort of thing that needs to be regulated in the first place? When I go to a restaurant and order a 16oz steak it doesn't get weighed on a government approved scale. That's because if a restaurant rips off its customers then people will stop eating there. If Uber overcharged for rides then people would stop using them for rides. This is textbook government overregulation.
  - elboru 10y ago
    Well it depends where you are. I spent my last vacations in Cuba, and it was a pain to have to bargain with taxis every single time, same distances will cost me anywhere between 25 and 5 dlls. I really missed uber over there, or even a taximeter, and again I'm sure that was because I was a tourist, even though I'm Hispanic myself they were able to spot me as a tourist.
  - bkor 10y ago
    > Why is this the sort of thing that needs to be regulated in the first place? Customer protection laws are entirely normal in lots of countries. You question the need, I question why you think it shouldn't exist? For your example, the restaurants are checked by the government. Unhealthy restaurants get warned and eventually closed. Determining if a scale is accurate on e.g. a market is another textbook regulation. > This is textbook government overregulation. Seems you're arguing for having companies cheat customers. What's the benefit for a country like Denmark to allow that to happen?
    - harryh 10y ago
      I'm arguing that, when it comes to taxi service (and steaks) customers are perfectly capable of protecting themselves from cheating service providers without government help. We should have as few regulations as we can get away with as regulations almost inevitably get used in unintended ways with negative consequences. Incumbents use them to drive out upstart competition and increase costs for everyone.
  - makomk 10y ago
    At least in the UK, companies are generally required to use government approved scales for goods that are sold by weight - and Trading Standards do random audits of this to make sure they're in compliance. This has been the case for a long time because rigged scales are a very old swindle.
- Sargos 10y ago
  This is Hacker News. I feel like you should at least know that taxi meters are not reliable and the systems that Uber etc use simply are. Using GPS and navigation to ensure fair driving fees is one of the key parts that makes Uber/Lyft literally better than Taxis.
- muse900 10y ago
  Yes and no. Where I come from... Greece more than half of Taxi-meters have been tampered.
TsomArp 10y ago
and taxi meters can be adulterated, uber cannot.
- Daviey 10y ago
  "cannot".. Whilst a different aspect, this is certainly corrupted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564 I'd agree with you if the system was entirely open to audit.. but it isn't. Regulated meters with security seals does provide the assurance... but i'm not saying it is a step forward. I generally defend Uber, but some of their actions I do struggle with.
  - jonknee 10y ago
    Uber's receipt gives you a map with times, distances and a breakdown of costs. A taxi meter gives you a total, but it has a seal of approval. I know which one gives me a sense of assurance.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
Yes. Just because the smartphone + app has the same capability doesn't mean that it is the best solution - nor does requiring a taxi meter mean that a government approved app that meets all the requriements of the taxi meter cannot be approved and/or used. Maybe the taxi meters have some sort of feature that makes them more secure. Maybe the government just cannot update the appropriate systems yet to include the tech. Maybe the general public doesn't trust the information of the meter. The point is that there are multiple reasons this is sensible regulation. The other thing it mentioned is seat sensors. I'm not sure a smartphone app would be able to do this as well, and I'm guessing the reasoning is because the taxis haven't always acted in respectable ways and is a way to fight against money laundering.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  So what are the sensible reasons? Can you provide any beyond vague speculation and "maybe"?
  - exDM69 10y ago
    When the network goes down or the app backend has technical problems, the taxi fare meter will still work. It makes sure no-one gets ripped off (the passenger and the driver) and that taxes are paid correctly. It's not fool-proof of course but I trust my local taxi's meter more than I trust Uber. This varies a lot by country and city, but I'm pretty sure that taxi meters are very reliable in Denmark.
    - saint_fiasco 10y ago
      The network going down should not affect the fare. It's not like the city map changes by the minute, and the last known price per mile is a good approximation.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      This makes no sense. I open up Uber and tell my destination, and Uber tells me 87₹. I press confirm and that's it. If the network goes down it's still 87₹. In contrast, a traditional taxi meter allows the cabbie to take a circuitous route with unsuspecting passengers. Before Uber I needed to constantly be on guard against autowales doing this to me (due to my ethnicity I'm prime ripoff target).
rmc 10y ago
That modern technology & database is controlled by a foreign company.

by ovi256 10y ago

chopin 10y ago

Afaik a taxi-meter is an approved device, at least somewhat tamper-resistant. Smartphone + app + backend is none of these.

Grue3 10y ago
Is it tamper-resistant to a taxi driver driving in circles to screw over clueless tourists?
- 50CNT 10y ago
  They're not even tamper resistant to clickers, which add additional pulses to the output of the tachometer the meter relies on to calculate fares.
Cthulhu_ 10y ago
Those are at least verifiable by 3rd parties - in Uber's case, both the driver's and passengers' smartphones should match up in terms of what route they took. I guess a sophisticated enough malicious driver could set up a GPS spoof in their car, but honestly if they can do that they're working in the wrong industry.
sitepodmatt 10y ago
Depends where I guess, certainly in Asia fast-running meters are not uncommon. To say a taxi meter is secure is like doing javascript client-side validation and no server-side whilst disabling right click. And approved by who? Vetted cryptographers?
tyingq 10y ago
The most popular taxi cheat is to the take the long way around. Meters don't help you there. Also, meters don't show you the full trip price before you commit. Uber could perhaps fiddle around with map data, but the history would have to show the correct origin and destination, or it would be noticed. It's trivially easy, and free, to audit against Google maps. I don't trust Uber to be ethical, but cheating in this space would just be corporate suicide...they would easily be caught.
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  The taxi lobby is alive and well in these and other internet forums. They come out full-force en masse to shit all over Uber. There is a battle being waged behind the scenes never forget that for one second. And that PR game is played on the internet every single day. I don't love Uber, but the criticism levied against it on a daily basis are bordering on overkill if not pure shilling for the taxi cos. Mountains are made out of molehills routinely on all the news I see and hear about Uber. Yet investors continue to flock because this is the end for taxis, and maybe in the future when self-driving-cars become a thing, car ownership in general. Why own a car when I could just rent one from Uber when I need it on schedule? The writing's on the wall.
harryh 10y ago
Who cares? Why is this the sort of thing that needs to be regulated in the first place? When I go to a restaurant and order a 16oz steak it doesn't get weighed on a government approved scale. That's because if a restaurant rips off its customers then people will stop eating there. If Uber overcharged for rides then people would stop using them for rides. This is textbook government overregulation.
- elboru 10y ago
  Well it depends where you are. I spent my last vacations in Cuba, and it was a pain to have to bargain with taxis every single time, same distances will cost me anywhere between 25 and 5 dlls. I really missed uber over there, or even a taximeter, and again I'm sure that was because I was a tourist, even though I'm Hispanic myself they were able to spot me as a tourist.
- bkor 10y ago
  > Why is this the sort of thing that needs to be regulated in the first place? Customer protection laws are entirely normal in lots of countries. You question the need, I question why you think it shouldn't exist? For your example, the restaurants are checked by the government. Unhealthy restaurants get warned and eventually closed. Determining if a scale is accurate on e.g. a market is another textbook regulation. > This is textbook government overregulation. Seems you're arguing for having companies cheat customers. What's the benefit for a country like Denmark to allow that to happen?
  - harryh 10y ago
    I'm arguing that, when it comes to taxi service (and steaks) customers are perfectly capable of protecting themselves from cheating service providers without government help. We should have as few regulations as we can get away with as regulations almost inevitably get used in unintended ways with negative consequences. Incumbents use them to drive out upstart competition and increase costs for everyone.
- makomk 10y ago
  At least in the UK, companies are generally required to use government approved scales for goods that are sold by weight - and Trading Standards do random audits of this to make sure they're in compliance. This has been the case for a long time because rigged scales are a very old swindle.
Sargos 10y ago
This is Hacker News. I feel like you should at least know that taxi meters are not reliable and the systems that Uber etc use simply are. Using GPS and navigation to ensure fair driving fees is one of the key parts that makes Uber/Lyft literally better than Taxis.
muse900 10y ago
Yes and no. Where I come from... Greece more than half of Taxi-meters have been tampered.

TsomArp 10y ago

and taxi meters can be adulterated, uber cannot.

Daviey 10y ago
"cannot".. Whilst a different aspect, this is certainly corrupted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564 I'd agree with you if the system was entirely open to audit.. but it isn't. Regulated meters with security seals does provide the assurance... but i'm not saying it is a step forward. I generally defend Uber, but some of their actions I do struggle with.
- jonknee 10y ago
  Uber's receipt gives you a map with times, distances and a breakdown of costs. A taxi meter gives you a total, but it has a seal of approval. I know which one gives me a sense of assurance.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

Yes. Just because the smartphone + app has the same capability doesn't mean that it is the best solution - nor does requiring a taxi meter mean that a government approved app that meets all the requriements of the taxi meter cannot be approved and/or used. Maybe the taxi meters have some sort of feature that makes them more secure. Maybe the government just cannot update the appropriate systems yet to include the tech. Maybe the general public doesn't trust the information of the meter. The point is that there are multiple reasons this is sensible regulation. The other thing it mentioned is seat sensors. I'm not sure a smartphone app would be able to do this as well, and I'm guessing the reasoning is because the taxis haven't always acted in respectable ways and is a way to fight against money laundering.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
So what are the sensible reasons? Can you provide any beyond vague speculation and "maybe"?
- exDM69 10y ago
  When the network goes down or the app backend has technical problems, the taxi fare meter will still work. It makes sure no-one gets ripped off (the passenger and the driver) and that taxes are paid correctly. It's not fool-proof of course but I trust my local taxi's meter more than I trust Uber. This varies a lot by country and city, but I'm pretty sure that taxi meters are very reliable in Denmark.
  - saint_fiasco 10y ago
    The network going down should not affect the fare. It's not like the city map changes by the minute, and the last known price per mile is a good approximation.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    This makes no sense. I open up Uber and tell my destination, and Uber tells me 87₹. I press confirm and that's it. If the network goes down it's still 87₹. In contrast, a traditional taxi meter allows the cabbie to take a circuitous route with unsuspecting passengers. Before Uber I needed to constantly be on guard against autowales doing this to me (due to my ethnicity I'm prime ripoff target).

rmc 10y ago

That modern technology & database is controlled by a foreign company.