4 ms·

I hope they are careful with the lead. When I was in grad school, there were still memories of a similarly large supply of low-radiation lead salvaged from a si

by yodon 10y ago

I hope they are careful with the lead. When I was in grad school, there were still memories of a similarly large supply of low-radiation lead salvaged from a similar ship wreck that ended up being stolen for recycling as scrap (I remember hearing this lesson when I was at Princeton, which I believe is where the the theft happened) Just because physicists consider the lead invaluable and irreplaceable doesn't mean recycling thieves will feel the same level of reverence towards it.

ams6110 10y ago
What causes "new" lead (whatever that means) to be more radioactive? I mean, there's nothing really creating lead naturally in the environment, so isn't all lead pretty much the same age?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jpt4 10y ago
  Atmospheric nuclear detonations have contaminated all un-so-shielded metals: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
- anamexis 10y ago
  I assume it is for the same reason as with steel[1] - the refinement process involves atmospheric air, and after we started detonating nuclear bombs, we raised the background radiation level of the atmosphere, and thus of the metals we produce. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
- peterburkimsher 10y ago
  There's a longer article explaining about Low-Background Steel on Hackaday: http://hackaday.com/2017/03/27/low-background-steel-so-hot-right-now/ http://hackaday.com/2017/03/27/low-background-steel-so-hot-r...
- ISL 10y ago
  Part of naturally-abundant lead is Pb-210 (Wikipedia says 'trace', but from my low-background colleagues many talks, Pb-210 is a persistent problem). Pb-210 is part of the uranium-thorium decay chain, and it has the longest halflife (22 yr) after thorium. If someone refines lead, it pulls out almost all of the impurities, except, of course, lead. As Pb-210 is chemically almost indistinguishable from the rest of the lead isotopes. If, however, someone many years ago refined the lead, much of the Pb-210 will have decayed, lowering the backgrounds. This effect is important enough that even 50-100 year old lead of reasonable quality is worth expending considerable resources to salvage. One group in our lab spent a couple of people-years removing mercury from contaminated 50-100 year old lead . The really precious stuff is ancient Roman lead, detailed in the article, that was submerged beneath the ocean for millenia. Not only has the 210 contamination decayed almost completely, but it has been shielded from cosmic-ray re-activation.
  - caf 10y ago
    It makes me wonder if we shouldn't be smelting a large cache of high-purity lead today and stashing it away deep underground, for the science experiments a few hundred years hence.
    - averagewall 10y ago
      Considering the relentless increase of lead production in the past few hundred years [1], with every passing year, old lead is probably becoming more and more readily available, to the point that in another 100 years it might be cheaper to just scrape it off rusted car wheels/etc. than deliberately store it for such a long time. As long as we don't get too greedy with recycling. [1] http://historum.com/general-history/21841-world-lead-production-last-2750-years.html http://historum.com/general-history/21841-world-lead-product...
    - firimari 10y ago
      Like, say, in the water pipes of a northern midwest city?
  - mockery 10y ago
    You seem to imply the Pb-210 only starts decaying after the refining occurs. I'm as curious about this as the grandparent - why? Edit: Figured it out in the reddit thread linked elsewhere ( https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/pg14g/til_that_ancient_roman_lead_is_valuable_for/c3p8jsa/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/pg14g/til_th... ) The key appears to be isolating the lead from co-occurring uranium which can decay into the Pb-210. It's not that the refined lead is losing Pb-210 any faster, it's just that there's no longer any uranium generating more of it. Fascinating!
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
riffraff 10y ago
While I cannot guarantee such a theft will not happen, the gran sasso national laboratory is literally in an underground hole below the largest mountain in center/south Italy. Unless a group of thieving dwarves and hobbits shows up it should be safe.
- averagewall 10y ago
  Or a contractor fixing the lights spots it on his way out. Not a lot of thefts happen by tunneling into buildings!
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    I don't see a contractor equipped to fix some lights make their way out with a few hundred pounds of lead, on top of that they would endanger their career and reputation for some 10's of $ whereas the job they were there for probably pays a large multiple of that. Blaming the contractor is easy, but the vast majority of such thefts is done by insiders or security personnel.
  - yodon 10y ago
    This is exactly what was thought to have happened to the previous low background lead supply. It sat around in a big empty lab long enough for someone to notice it and notice that it was in a mostly empty lab.

by yodon 10y ago

ams6110 10y ago

What causes "new" lead (whatever that means) to be more radioactive? I mean, there's nothing really creating lead naturally in the environment, so isn't all lead pretty much the same age?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jpt4 10y ago
Atmospheric nuclear detonations have contaminated all un-so-shielded metals: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
anamexis 10y ago
I assume it is for the same reason as with steel[1] - the refinement process involves atmospheric air, and after we started detonating nuclear bombs, we raised the background radiation level of the atmosphere, and thus of the metals we produce. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
peterburkimsher 10y ago
There's a longer article explaining about Low-Background Steel on Hackaday: http://hackaday.com/2017/03/27/low-background-steel-so-hot-right-now/ http://hackaday.com/2017/03/27/low-background-steel-so-hot-r...
ISL 10y ago
Part of naturally-abundant lead is Pb-210 (Wikipedia says 'trace', but from my low-background colleagues many talks, Pb-210 is a persistent problem). Pb-210 is part of the uranium-thorium decay chain, and it has the longest halflife (22 yr) after thorium. If someone refines lead, it pulls out almost all of the impurities, except, of course, lead. As Pb-210 is chemically almost indistinguishable from the rest of the lead isotopes. If, however, someone many years ago refined the lead, much of the Pb-210 will have decayed, lowering the backgrounds. This effect is important enough that even 50-100 year old lead of reasonable quality is worth expending considerable resources to salvage. One group in our lab spent a couple of people-years removing mercury from contaminated 50-100 year old lead . The really precious stuff is ancient Roman lead, detailed in the article, that was submerged beneath the ocean for millenia. Not only has the 210 contamination decayed almost completely, but it has been shielded from cosmic-ray re-activation.
- caf 10y ago
  It makes me wonder if we shouldn't be smelting a large cache of high-purity lead today and stashing it away deep underground, for the science experiments a few hundred years hence.
  - averagewall 10y ago
    Considering the relentless increase of lead production in the past few hundred years [1], with every passing year, old lead is probably becoming more and more readily available, to the point that in another 100 years it might be cheaper to just scrape it off rusted car wheels/etc. than deliberately store it for such a long time. As long as we don't get too greedy with recycling. [1] http://historum.com/general-history/21841-world-lead-production-last-2750-years.html http://historum.com/general-history/21841-world-lead-product...
  - firimari 10y ago
    Like, say, in the water pipes of a northern midwest city?
- mockery 10y ago
  You seem to imply the Pb-210 only starts decaying after the refining occurs. I'm as curious about this as the grandparent - why? Edit: Figured it out in the reddit thread linked elsewhere ( https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/pg14g/til_that_ancient_roman_lead_is_valuable_for/c3p8jsa/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/pg14g/til_th... ) The key appears to be isolating the lead from co-occurring uranium which can decay into the Pb-210. It's not that the refined lead is losing Pb-210 any faster, it's just that there's no longer any uranium generating more of it. Fascinating!
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

riffraff 10y ago

While I cannot guarantee such a theft will not happen, the gran sasso national laboratory is literally in an underground hole below the largest mountain in center/south Italy. Unless a group of thieving dwarves and hobbits shows up it should be safe.

averagewall 10y ago
Or a contractor fixing the lights spots it on his way out. Not a lot of thefts happen by tunneling into buildings!
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I don't see a contractor equipped to fix some lights make their way out with a few hundred pounds of lead, on top of that they would endanger their career and reputation for some 10's of $ whereas the job they were there for probably pays a large multiple of that. Blaming the contractor is easy, but the vast majority of such thefts is done by insiders or security personnel.
- yodon 10y ago
  This is exactly what was thought to have happened to the previous low background lead supply. It sat around in a big empty lab long enough for someone to notice it and notice that it was in a mostly empty lab.