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>But the provinces will have the right to decide how the marijuana is distributed and sold. Provincial governments will also have the right to set price. I don

by noarchy 10y ago

>But the provinces will have the right to decide how the marijuana is distributed and sold. Provincial governments will also have the right to set price. I don't look forward to the potential outcome of this. Most provinces have long been saddled with alcohol monopolies that keep prices quite high, particularly when compared to neighbouring US states. I can easily see provinces setting up similar, monopolized retail systems for weed. Canada already has a huge black market in untaxed cigarettes, and if provinces are not careful with prices/taxes, the already-existing black market in marijuana will live on.

snowwindwaves 10y ago
the legitimate market will still have to compete with the black market. Many of my friends in BC prefer going to dispensaries because of the variety and consistency of the products as well as convenience vs. meeting your dealer and buying whatever he has. I also think the legitimate grow ops are going to end up being a lot more efficient because they won't have to make any effort hiding from authorities.
eyeJam 10y ago
I can never find sympathy for people who complain about high alcohol tax in Canada. Is this something that really affects your quality of life? Or is it more of personal inconvenience? Alcohol taxes violate vertical equity. And they should. Lower income individuals should not be encouraged to purchase more alcohol, since they are more likely to be vulnerable to the negative social, mental and physical effects of alcohol consumption. Reducing alcohol tax leads to a greater burden on the healthcare system.
- sdm 10y ago
  > I can never find sympathy for people who complain about high alcohol tax in Canada. To be fair, the OP to didn't mention anything about taxes. The high taxes on alcohol have to be paid irrespective of private or public distribution channels. The OP is more guilty of generalizing from ON to the rest of the country when it comes to public distribution channels.
  - arcticbull 10y ago
    I second the idea alcohol should be expensive, I don't much care if the Delta is due to tax or monopoly profiteering by the province -- I'm not sure I can tell the difference tbh, the latter is a de facto tax.
    - aianus 10y ago
      The government monopoly in Ontario runs advertising campaigns, sales, and loyalty programs to encourage people to buy more booze. It's a sleazy regressive tax program, not a health program to reduce consumption.
    - jkaunisv1 10y ago
      In Ontario the profiteering is not by the province for the Beer Store. That's a monopoly owned by the beer companies themselves. So it's not a de facto tax.
  - noarchy 10y ago
    >The OP is more guilty of generalizing from ON to the rest of the country when it comes to public distribution channels. Am I? You realize that most provinces have monopoly retail system, right? Even here in Quebec, while we can purchase beer at grocery stores (something Ontario only recently allowed, from my understanding, and then only in limited amounts), we still can't buy good wine or any spirits anywhere but the SAQ.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- noarchy 10y ago
  >I can never find sympathy for people who complain about high alcohol tax in Canada. Likewise, I have little sympathy for those who want to tax everything I do. We're on opposite sites of an unbridgeable chasm, perhaps.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    I have little sympathy for those who decide they need to impose unjustified rule, taxation, force and protection private property against the workers. There's a third side to the chasm, if such a thing could exist.
    - eyeJam 10y ago
      Is it unjustified? By what measure? Alcohol taxes fund the social welfare system, and alcohol taxes the social welfare system. Alcohol tax is rationally connected to it's purpose. It isn't arbitrary, and if it does infringe on your rights (very dubious argument), that infringement is minimal. Alcohol tax doesn't outright prevent you from purchasing alcohol.
      - noarchy 10y ago
        As you surely know, it isn't merely taxes that are at work in most provinces. Retail monopolies are another way to keep prices elevated, but even more, they expressly forbid competition in sales and distribution, which cuts off potential markets. There's no question that this infringes on the ability of people to exchange freely. As to the effects of alcohol (or cigarettes, etc) on the social welfare system, this may be another argument against the social welfare system, or at least the manner in which it tends to operate. If the result is that government must creep further and further into regulating/taxing the lives of the population in order to control ever-rising costs, then something is quite awry.
- nasalgoat 10y ago
  It's less the tax and more the inability to get it conveniently, since the LCBO is closed for all holidays and also tends to keep short retail hours. The alcohol laws in Ontario date back to prohibition and I would like to see them relaxed so I could get a beer at the corner store. MJ is currently in a position to avoid the whole "nanny state" treatment altogether, which is what people are talking about.
mahyarm 10y ago
What happens when you are convicted for buying & selling black market cigs? And how much do the police care about it? Compared to lets say heroin?
sdm 10y ago
> Most provinces have long been saddled with alcohol monopolies that keep prices quite high Actually alcohol monopolies keep prices low. Take what happened in Alberta, for example, when they got rid of the monopoly: prices skyrocketed. Plus government store generally carry a wider variety of goods and pay their employees a reasonable amount. Just look at your average BC Liquor Store vs private store. Really only Ontario has managed to mess up the government distribution of alcohol; most provinces haven't had the same experience. > Canada already has a huge black market in untaxed cigarettes Really? Where? Yes there are some issues in Eastern Canada (mainly southern ON). But for the most part this just isn't the case.
- Tiktaalik 10y ago
  > Plus government store generally carry a wider variety of goods Are you nuts? BC private stores carry a dramatically wider variety of goods than public. Where do you live...? Have a look at Legacy Liquor or Brewery Creek in Vancouver vs any government liquor store. The difference in variety is staggering.
  - highstep 10y ago
    That's true in larger centers like vancouver, but not in small cities and towns. In those place the government stores are an ale drinker's oasis.
- noarchy 10y ago
  >Actually alcohol monopolies keep prices low. Take what happened in Alberta, for example, when they got rid of the monopoly: prices skyrocketed. Dig a bit deeper. Alberta's situation was/is because of taxes, which remain imposed regardless of who is doing the selling. >Plus government store generally carry a wider variety of goods I suspect you've never been outside of the country, to make that claim. >Really only Ontario has managed to mess up the government distribution of alcohol; most provinces haven't had the same experience. Ontario isn't even the worst, just the biggest. >Really? Where? Yes there are some issues in Eastern Canada (mainly southern ON). But for the most part this just isn't the case. That market is worth billions of dollars, in Quebec and Ontario. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/illegal-cigarettes http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/illegal-cigarettes
jkaunisv1 10y ago
It depends hugely on where they end up landing on home growing. Right now they're considering 4 plants per residence for personal use. If people can grow their own the retail proposition is very different.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  Speaking from experience in Colorado where we have a 6 plant limit, it is plenty. The commercial markets focus on good producing strains, rather than connoisseur strains that often taste much better. The problem has been seeds, but my understanding is that BC has some very good seed banks. I hope you all have the opportunity to cultivate your own plants, and 4 seems too few if you want to keep the pipeline full (i.e. clones/veg/flower).

by noarchy 10y ago

snowwindwaves 10y ago

the legitimate market will still have to compete with the black market. Many of my friends in BC prefer going to dispensaries because of the variety and consistency of the products as well as convenience vs. meeting your dealer and buying whatever he has. I also think the legitimate grow ops are going to end up being a lot more efficient because they won't have to make any effort hiding from authorities.

eyeJam 10y ago

I can never find sympathy for people who complain about high alcohol tax in Canada. Is this something that really affects your quality of life? Or is it more of personal inconvenience? Alcohol taxes violate vertical equity. And they should. Lower income individuals should not be encouraged to purchase more alcohol, since they are more likely to be vulnerable to the negative social, mental and physical effects of alcohol consumption. Reducing alcohol tax leads to a greater burden on the healthcare system.

sdm 10y ago
> I can never find sympathy for people who complain about high alcohol tax in Canada. To be fair, the OP to didn't mention anything about taxes. The high taxes on alcohol have to be paid irrespective of private or public distribution channels. The OP is more guilty of generalizing from ON to the rest of the country when it comes to public distribution channels.
- arcticbull 10y ago
  I second the idea alcohol should be expensive, I don't much care if the Delta is due to tax or monopoly profiteering by the province -- I'm not sure I can tell the difference tbh, the latter is a de facto tax.
  - aianus 10y ago
    The government monopoly in Ontario runs advertising campaigns, sales, and loyalty programs to encourage people to buy more booze. It's a sleazy regressive tax program, not a health program to reduce consumption.
  - jkaunisv1 10y ago
    In Ontario the profiteering is not by the province for the Beer Store. That's a monopoly owned by the beer companies themselves. So it's not a de facto tax.
- noarchy 10y ago
  >The OP is more guilty of generalizing from ON to the rest of the country when it comes to public distribution channels. Am I? You realize that most provinces have monopoly retail system, right? Even here in Quebec, while we can purchase beer at grocery stores (something Ontario only recently allowed, from my understanding, and then only in limited amounts), we still can't buy good wine or any spirits anywhere but the SAQ.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
noarchy 10y ago
>I can never find sympathy for people who complain about high alcohol tax in Canada. Likewise, I have little sympathy for those who want to tax everything I do. We're on opposite sites of an unbridgeable chasm, perhaps.
- ue_ 10y ago
  I have little sympathy for those who decide they need to impose unjustified rule, taxation, force and protection private property against the workers. There's a third side to the chasm, if such a thing could exist.
  - eyeJam 10y ago
    Is it unjustified? By what measure? Alcohol taxes fund the social welfare system, and alcohol taxes the social welfare system. Alcohol tax is rationally connected to it's purpose. It isn't arbitrary, and if it does infringe on your rights (very dubious argument), that infringement is minimal. Alcohol tax doesn't outright prevent you from purchasing alcohol.
    - noarchy 10y ago
      As you surely know, it isn't merely taxes that are at work in most provinces. Retail monopolies are another way to keep prices elevated, but even more, they expressly forbid competition in sales and distribution, which cuts off potential markets. There's no question that this infringes on the ability of people to exchange freely. As to the effects of alcohol (or cigarettes, etc) on the social welfare system, this may be another argument against the social welfare system, or at least the manner in which it tends to operate. If the result is that government must creep further and further into regulating/taxing the lives of the population in order to control ever-rising costs, then something is quite awry.
nasalgoat 10y ago
It's less the tax and more the inability to get it conveniently, since the LCBO is closed for all holidays and also tends to keep short retail hours. The alcohol laws in Ontario date back to prohibition and I would like to see them relaxed so I could get a beer at the corner store. MJ is currently in a position to avoid the whole "nanny state" treatment altogether, which is what people are talking about.

mahyarm 10y ago

What happens when you are convicted for buying & selling black market cigs? And how much do the police care about it? Compared to lets say heroin?

sdm 10y ago

> Most provinces have long been saddled with alcohol monopolies that keep prices quite high Actually alcohol monopolies keep prices low. Take what happened in Alberta, for example, when they got rid of the monopoly: prices skyrocketed. Plus government store generally carry a wider variety of goods and pay their employees a reasonable amount. Just look at your average BC Liquor Store vs private store. Really only Ontario has managed to mess up the government distribution of alcohol; most provinces haven't had the same experience. > Canada already has a huge black market in untaxed cigarettes Really? Where? Yes there are some issues in Eastern Canada (mainly southern ON). But for the most part this just isn't the case.

Tiktaalik 10y ago
> Plus government store generally carry a wider variety of goods Are you nuts? BC private stores carry a dramatically wider variety of goods than public. Where do you live...? Have a look at Legacy Liquor or Brewery Creek in Vancouver vs any government liquor store. The difference in variety is staggering.
- highstep 10y ago
  That's true in larger centers like vancouver, but not in small cities and towns. In those place the government stores are an ale drinker's oasis.
noarchy 10y ago
>Actually alcohol monopolies keep prices low. Take what happened in Alberta, for example, when they got rid of the monopoly: prices skyrocketed. Dig a bit deeper. Alberta's situation was/is because of taxes, which remain imposed regardless of who is doing the selling. >Plus government store generally carry a wider variety of goods I suspect you've never been outside of the country, to make that claim. >Really only Ontario has managed to mess up the government distribution of alcohol; most provinces haven't had the same experience. Ontario isn't even the worst, just the biggest. >Really? Where? Yes there are some issues in Eastern Canada (mainly southern ON). But for the most part this just isn't the case. That market is worth billions of dollars, in Quebec and Ontario. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/illegal-cigarettes http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/illegal-cigarettes

jkaunisv1 10y ago

It depends hugely on where they end up landing on home growing. Right now they're considering 4 plants per residence for personal use. If people can grow their own the retail proposition is very different.

narrowrail 10y ago
Speaking from experience in Colorado where we have a 6 plant limit, it is plenty. The commercial markets focus on good producing strains, rather than connoisseur strains that often taste much better. The problem has been seeds, but my understanding is that BC has some very good seed banks. I hope you all have the opportunity to cultivate your own plants, and 4 seems too few if you want to keep the pipeline full (i.e. clones/veg/flower).