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He seems angry... like he's really offended that people are criticizing his decision to leave out Flash from the iPad. He says he wants the market to decide.

He seems angry... like he's really offended that people are criticizing his decision to leave out Flash from the iPad. He says he wants the market to decide. But when the market decides, then it's too late. Even diehard Apple fans are not happy Flash can't be viewed on the iPad. Big opportunity for Android tablets, courtesy of Steve Jobs and company.

pavs 16y ago
uh... sorry to break this to you, but they sold 2 million ipads in less than 60 days. I think the market doesn't seem to care. Not sure how the future will pan out, but they are way ahead of everyone else, just like they were with ipod and then iphone (touch phone market share) and now with ipad. If apple would have decided to go with flash I think they would have to compromise on battery performance. They did ask adobe to give them a less power hungry, more stable flash build for ipad, which they didn't. Anyone who uses an apple computer will tell you how ridiculous it is to play flash videos (or anything) on a mac. Your machine will go on hyper-drive, and your browser will crash frequently. Adobe has a history of working slowly on flash, which had horrible stability along all platforms not too long ago, while its definitely much better on Windows in recent times, it didn't improve much on OSX. Their next release for mobile is already delayed twice AFAIK. I think this speaks volumes about Adobe software development. I am hardly an apple apologist, but if there is anyone to be blamed for the omission of flash on ipad, its adobe. iPhone was released 3 years ago, and Adobe still doesn't have a good flash player for mobile or mac.
- 16g 16y ago
  *and your browser will crash frequently I keep seeing this claim all the time. Flash is a complete resource hog, i agree. But my mac/browser has never crashed because of Flash, since i bought this in 2007. Mind showing me a flash site that could crash my mac/browser?
  - pavs 16y ago
    This was my experience while using Firefox with flash on OSX for as long as I can remember. I had the same problem with safari, but I haven't use safari on mac for a long time, so I can't verify that. I only use Chrome now and before the recent update where they integrated flash beta player into Chrome[1], Chrome also used to crash very frequently. Even apple revealed that "based on data from the Crash Reporter application built into Mac OS X — the thing that asks if you’d like to send crash data to Apple after a crash — the most frequent cause of crashes across all of Mac OS X are “plugins”" [2]. [1] http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/bringing-improved-support-for-adobe.html http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/bringing-improved-support-f... [2] http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash
  - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
    Here's a bunch of them: http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6.4 http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6.... That's not just Flash sites, that's all sites that crash Firefox, but on a quick skim I couldn't see any that didn't involve Flash.
  - pohl 16y ago
    Bear in mind that you are one person, and your mileage may vary. I'm glad you've had better luck than I. Software changes over time (both the browser, and the flash plugin, and the flash code deployed on web pages) so asking someone to reference a particular site that will crash your particular browser won't help you understand what's going on. A better idea might be a few clever search strings: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=safari+crash+log+flash http://lmgtfy.com/?q=safari+crash+log+flash Or, alternatively, you can look at the architecture of chrome and ask why they put tabs in separate processes, and why mozilla is also putting protection in place: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/03/mozilla-previews-new-feature-to-guard-against-flash-crashes.ars http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/03/mozilla-prev... Apple isn't just making a wild conjecture when they say that Flash is the leading cause of browser crashes. They get stack traces sent to them by the crash reporting mechanism, and they get to count how many crashes come from what region of code. Drawn from sample sizes in the millions, this constitutes measurement.
    - 16g 16y ago
      OP says "your browser will crash frequently". Most of the replies (including yours) to my question only points to crash logs that cant be reproduced .Your answer is a very generic explanation on software development. And that is exactly what i am saying. I keep seeing all these people complaining about Flash , but no one has a proof that actually works. As i mentioned before, Flash is a complete resource hog on the mac but no one here has a solid reproducible proof for "frequent crashes". I choose not to believe in Apple's claims and numbers, as they are in open war with Adobe now on the issue. Opening up Flash on iPad and iPhone is lost business for app store(if you own an iPad/iPhone, you already know that currently there is no decent html5 application that work properly on these devices.)
      - pohl 16y ago
        Call stack traces are not generic. They point to specific places. Those places are aggregated and counted. You're free to disbelieve that Apple is reporting their #1 source of crashes honestly, but you should take a look at the Top Crash link provided by ZeroGravitas. If you're not seeing the same pattern, you're not looking without bias. http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6.4 http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6....
  - forgottenpaswrd 16y ago
    My experience with imac with a snow leopard is not crashing much(firefox)(it has crashed two times in two months), but yes I have a lot of problems I had not with Linux flash with the mac one.
jsz0 16y ago
I think he probably was a bit angry that Adobe kept acting like they had Flash waiting-in-the-wings for the iPhone OS over the last couple of years yet it appears they're in the alpha/beta stage at best.
loewenskind 16y ago
>Even diehard Apple fans are not happy Flash can't be viewed on the iPad Really? I'm not even an Apple fanboy (only recently started switching to the platform) and if it weren't for all the hoopla I don't think I'd have even noticed it wasn't there. youtube works. There are more free games in the app store than I would probably have time left in my life to play. I suppose now that you mention it, I don't see as many stupid ads when surfing.
jodrellblank 16y ago
Even diehard Apple fans are not happy Flash can't be viewed on the iPad. Some of us aren't. Some of us are rejoicing that someone has stood up against this blight and completely forbade it from their system. That they have such a desirable closed curated system is a bit creepy, but at least in this case they are using that power for good. I hope Apple is the first of many.

pavs 16y ago

uh... sorry to break this to you, but they sold 2 million ipads in less than 60 days. I think the market doesn't seem to care. Not sure how the future will pan out, but they are way ahead of everyone else, just like they were with ipod and then iphone (touch phone market share) and now with ipad. If apple would have decided to go with flash I think they would have to compromise on battery performance. They did ask adobe to give them a less power hungry, more stable flash build for ipad, which they didn't. Anyone who uses an apple computer will tell you how ridiculous it is to play flash videos (or anything) on a mac. Your machine will go on hyper-drive, and your browser will crash frequently. Adobe has a history of working slowly on flash, which had horrible stability along all platforms not too long ago, while its definitely much better on Windows in recent times, it didn't improve much on OSX. Their next release for mobile is already delayed twice AFAIK. I think this speaks volumes about Adobe software development. I am hardly an apple apologist, but if there is anyone to be blamed for the omission of flash on ipad, its adobe. iPhone was released 3 years ago, and Adobe still doesn't have a good flash player for mobile or mac.

16g 16y ago
*and your browser will crash frequently I keep seeing this claim all the time. Flash is a complete resource hog, i agree. But my mac/browser has never crashed because of Flash, since i bought this in 2007. Mind showing me a flash site that could crash my mac/browser?
- pavs 16y ago
  This was my experience while using Firefox with flash on OSX for as long as I can remember. I had the same problem with safari, but I haven't use safari on mac for a long time, so I can't verify that. I only use Chrome now and before the recent update where they integrated flash beta player into Chrome[1], Chrome also used to crash very frequently. Even apple revealed that "based on data from the Crash Reporter application built into Mac OS X — the thing that asks if you’d like to send crash data to Apple after a crash — the most frequent cause of crashes across all of Mac OS X are “plugins”" [2]. [1] http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/bringing-improved-support-for-adobe.html http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/bringing-improved-support-f... [2] http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash
- ZeroGravitas 16y ago
  Here's a bunch of them: http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6.4 http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6.... That's not just Flash sites, that's all sites that crash Firefox, but on a quick skim I couldn't see any that didn't involve Flash.
- pohl 16y ago
  Bear in mind that you are one person, and your mileage may vary. I'm glad you've had better luck than I. Software changes over time (both the browser, and the flash plugin, and the flash code deployed on web pages) so asking someone to reference a particular site that will crash your particular browser won't help you understand what's going on. A better idea might be a few clever search strings: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=safari+crash+log+flash http://lmgtfy.com/?q=safari+crash+log+flash Or, alternatively, you can look at the architecture of chrome and ask why they put tabs in separate processes, and why mozilla is also putting protection in place: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/03/mozilla-previews-new-feature-to-guard-against-flash-crashes.ars http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/03/mozilla-prev... Apple isn't just making a wild conjecture when they say that Flash is the leading cause of browser crashes. They get stack traces sent to them by the crash reporting mechanism, and they get to count how many crashes come from what region of code. Drawn from sample sizes in the millions, this constitutes measurement.
  - 16g 16y ago
    OP says "your browser will crash frequently". Most of the replies (including yours) to my question only points to crash logs that cant be reproduced .Your answer is a very generic explanation on software development. And that is exactly what i am saying. I keep seeing all these people complaining about Flash , but no one has a proof that actually works. As i mentioned before, Flash is a complete resource hog on the mac but no one here has a solid reproducible proof for "frequent crashes". I choose not to believe in Apple's claims and numbers, as they are in open war with Adobe now on the issue. Opening up Flash on iPad and iPhone is lost business for app store(if you own an iPad/iPhone, you already know that currently there is no decent html5 application that work properly on these devices.)
    - pohl 16y ago
      Call stack traces are not generic. They point to specific places. Those places are aggregated and counted. You're free to disbelieve that Apple is reporting their #1 source of crashes honestly, but you should take a look at the Top Crash link provided by ZeroGravitas. If you're not seeing the same pattern, you're not looking without bias. http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6.4 http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/topcrasher/byurl/Firefox/3.6....
- forgottenpaswrd 16y ago
  My experience with imac with a snow leopard is not crashing much(firefox)(it has crashed two times in two months), but yes I have a lot of problems I had not with Linux flash with the mac one.

jsz0 16y ago

I think he probably was a bit angry that Adobe kept acting like they had Flash waiting-in-the-wings for the iPhone OS over the last couple of years yet it appears they're in the alpha/beta stage at best.

loewenskind 16y ago

>Even diehard Apple fans are not happy Flash can't be viewed on the iPad Really? I'm not even an Apple fanboy (only recently started switching to the platform) and if it weren't for all the hoopla I don't think I'd have even noticed it wasn't there. youtube works. There are more free games in the app store than I would probably have time left in my life to play. I suppose now that you mention it, I don't see as many stupid ads when surfing.

jodrellblank 16y ago

Even diehard Apple fans are not happy Flash can't be viewed on the iPad. Some of us aren't. Some of us are rejoicing that someone has stood up against this blight and completely forbade it from their system. That they have such a desirable closed curated system is a bit creepy, but at least in this case they are using that power for good. I hope Apple is the first of many.