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> But it remains true that those people are not significantly wealthier on a PPP basis than people making median US wages but living in a city with a lower cost

> But it remains true that those people are not significantly wealthier on a PPP basis than people making median US wages but living in a city with a lower cost of living. No, it remains your unfounded - and untrue - assertion. A lot of people have salaries very close to those in Silicon Valley, in housing markets significantly cheaper than Silicon Valley. Haven't you heard of remote work? A lot of us at the high end are able to do it, but maybe you haven't reached that point yourself. For people like me and quite a few of my friends/colleagues, we're winning the PPP game by not living in SV. > Better developers obviously get paid more than worse developers. Now who's changing the subject? We're not talking about better or worse developers. We're talking about developers at the same level, often the same people as they move from job to job. Rich companies can and do pay higher salaries regardless of the worker's location. That creates a feedback loop, distorting both labor and capital markets, turning temporary advantages into permanent ones and stifling competition. I've worked at a lot of startups, and learned a lot about their advantages and disadvantages relative to larger competitors. Over-regulation was never one of those problems, and nobody responsible for setting strategy was ever so ideologically blind that they tried to pretend otherwise. I'm guessing that's not a recipe for startup success, in Silicon Valley or anywhere else.

AnthonyMouse 10y ago
> No, it remains your unfounded - and untrue - assertion. Which part do you assert is untrue, that there are developers actually living in SV, or that making more money there is equivalent to making less money somewhere with a lower cost of living? > A lot of people have salaries very close to those in Silicon Valley, in housing markets significantly cheaper than Silicon Valley. Haven't you heard of remote work? Everybody wants remote work at SV salaries. That doesn't mean everybody can get it. It's obviously true tautologically that people who don't live in SV don't have to live there, but those are also not the people bidding up area rents or riding a shuttle with people protesting outside it. You still haven't offered any explanation for why the people living in SV continue to do so if it was actually possible for them to do the same thing you're doing. > We're not talking about better or worse developers. We're talking about developers at the same level, often the same people as they move from job to job. We are talking about better or worse developers, or what is your argument? When one person goes from making less money to more money, all it shows is that they were previously under-compensated (or are now over-compensated) for their skill level. Or that their skill level has changed. If big companies were paying higher salaries to the same developers then how would that create any advantage for them? > Rich companies can and do pay higher salaries regardless of the worker's location. That creates a feedback loop, distorting both labor and capital markets, turning temporary advantages into permanent ones and stifling competition. Rich tech companies don't have a monopoly on capital. If all it took is to pay developers a lot of money then it would be Wall St rather than tech companies doing the paying and collecting the yields. > I've worked at a lot of startups, and learned a lot about their advantages and disadvantages relative to larger competitors. Over-regulation was never one of those problems, and nobody responsible for setting strategy was ever so ideologically blind that they tried to pretend otherwise. Over-regulation isn't a problem for the startups that actually exist -- VCs don't fund the ones the regulations make prohibitive and provide the money to pay the cost for the others. But the result is fewer startups, so rich companies can afford to buy every one of them that poses a threat to them. Let me give an example of bad regulation. DMCA 1201 (or software patents, or the CFAA, or whatever they use this year), which Apple et al use to lock smaller entities out of their platforms unless they pay 30% and just outright prohibit people from making apps they don't like. Are you taking the position that that sort of a veto doesn't prevent startups that would otherwise compete with Apple's apps from getting off the ground?
- notacoward 10y ago
  > Which part do you assert is untrue, Neither of your strawmen. I am not making my own assertion at all. I am challenging your assertion that maintaining a high standard of living requires moving to the Center Of The Universe for all or nearly all developers. You seem to base this assertion on a premise that the difference in salaries outweighs the difference in cost of living, but have provided no evidence to support that. I know it's not true for me, but at least I don't assume that my experience is universal. > Everybody wants remote work at SV salaries. That doesn't mean everybody can get it. True. You have to be pretty good at what you do. > We are talking about better or worse developers, or what is your argument? Again, it's not my argument. It's yours, and it's ridiculous. It's only about good vs. bad developers if one assumes that a good developer lives in Silicon Valley and a bad developer is one who lives anywhere else. If one accepts that there are good and bad developers everywhere, or that some people measure value differently than you do, then it makes absolutely no sense. > If big companies were paying higher salaries to the same developers then how would that create any advantage for them? Have you heard abou this little thing called network effects? The theory is that, by bringing good developers together, synergy creates value that doesn't exist with them separate. It's an idea I could argue from either side, but the important thing is that it doesn't require physical proximity to work. It can be well worth paying a premium to bring good developers into logical or virtual proximity with one another, and the big rich companies are taking advantage of that. > Rich tech companies don't have a monopoly on capital. If all it took is to pay developers a lot of money then it would be Wall St rather than tech companies doing the paying and collecting the yields. It doesn't require a monopoly. All it requires is a significant asymmetry. Also, Wall Street very much has been playing this game too, with effects and remedies that would be just as worthy of debate if we could get past the facile attempts to deny the reality of it happening.
  - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
    > Neither of your strawmen. I am not making my own assertion at all. I am challenging your assertion that maintaining a high standard of living requires moving to the Center Of The Universe for all or nearly all developers. You seem to be challenging your own straw man. > You seem to base this assertion on a premise that the difference in salaries outweighs the difference in cost of living, but have provided no evidence to support that. The evidence is all of the developers who choose to live and work in SV despite the high cost of living. > I know it's not true for me, but at least I don't assume that my experience is universal. That is the straw man -- I never claimed it was universal. It's true of the people who live there, or why do they? > True. You have to be pretty good at what you do. That doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Plenty of call center workers are allowed (or required) to work from home, because it saves the company from having to pay for office space for them, but that doesn't make them particularly highly skilled or highly paid. > Again, it's not my argument. It's yours, and it's ridiculous. Here's you from before: > Rich companies can and do pay higher salaries regardless of the worker's location. That creates a feedback loop, distorting both labor and capital markets, turning temporary advantages into permanent ones and stifling competition. If the higher salaries aren't paying for better work then how do the companies get any advantage out of it? > Have you heard abou this little thing called network effects? The theory is that, by bringing good developers together, synergy creates value that doesn't exist with them separate. That isn't what "network effects" means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect "Big" isn't an advantage here. It means bureaucracy and politics and Mythical Man Month problems. These companies succeed despite these things, not because of them. > It can be well worth paying a premium to bring good developers into logical or virtual proximity with one another, and the big rich companies are taking advantage of that. What do you suppose is stopping the same people from coming together on their own and just keeping the money their work generates? > It doesn't require a monopoly. All it requires is a significant asymmetry. Asymmetric capital? How is Apple's billion dollars better than any random capitalist's billion dollars? > Also, Wall Street very much has been playing this game too, with effects and remedies that would be just as worthy of debate if we could get past the facile attempts to deny the reality of it happening. What game? "Money makes money" has been the basis of Wall St since day zero. The method by which this doesn't lead to permanent massive consolidation of power is that new entities come into existence and displace old ones, but are owned by new people. The problem is the thwarting of that process by requiring the permission of incumbents to make new things.

AnthonyMouse 10y ago

> No, it remains your unfounded - and untrue - assertion. Which part do you assert is untrue, that there are developers actually living in SV, or that making more money there is equivalent to making less money somewhere with a lower cost of living? > A lot of people have salaries very close to those in Silicon Valley, in housing markets significantly cheaper than Silicon Valley. Haven't you heard of remote work? Everybody wants remote work at SV salaries. That doesn't mean everybody can get it. It's obviously true tautologically that people who don't live in SV don't have to live there, but those are also not the people bidding up area rents or riding a shuttle with people protesting outside it. You still haven't offered any explanation for why the people living in SV continue to do so if it was actually possible for them to do the same thing you're doing. > We're not talking about better or worse developers. We're talking about developers at the same level, often the same people as they move from job to job. We are talking about better or worse developers, or what is your argument? When one person goes from making less money to more money, all it shows is that they were previously under-compensated (or are now over-compensated) for their skill level. Or that their skill level has changed. If big companies were paying higher salaries to the same developers then how would that create any advantage for them? > Rich companies can and do pay higher salaries regardless of the worker's location. That creates a feedback loop, distorting both labor and capital markets, turning temporary advantages into permanent ones and stifling competition. Rich tech companies don't have a monopoly on capital. If all it took is to pay developers a lot of money then it would be Wall St rather than tech companies doing the paying and collecting the yields. > I've worked at a lot of startups, and learned a lot about their advantages and disadvantages relative to larger competitors. Over-regulation was never one of those problems, and nobody responsible for setting strategy was ever so ideologically blind that they tried to pretend otherwise. Over-regulation isn't a problem for the startups that actually exist -- VCs don't fund the ones the regulations make prohibitive and provide the money to pay the cost for the others. But the result is fewer startups, so rich companies can afford to buy every one of them that poses a threat to them. Let me give an example of bad regulation. DMCA 1201 (or software patents, or the CFAA, or whatever they use this year), which Apple et al use to lock smaller entities out of their platforms unless they pay 30% and just outright prohibit people from making apps they don't like. Are you taking the position that that sort of a veto doesn't prevent startups that would otherwise compete with Apple's apps from getting off the ground?

notacoward 10y ago
> Which part do you assert is untrue, Neither of your strawmen. I am not making my own assertion at all. I am challenging your assertion that maintaining a high standard of living requires moving to the Center Of The Universe for all or nearly all developers. You seem to base this assertion on a premise that the difference in salaries outweighs the difference in cost of living, but have provided no evidence to support that. I know it's not true for me, but at least I don't assume that my experience is universal. > Everybody wants remote work at SV salaries. That doesn't mean everybody can get it. True. You have to be pretty good at what you do. > We are talking about better or worse developers, or what is your argument? Again, it's not my argument. It's yours, and it's ridiculous. It's only about good vs. bad developers if one assumes that a good developer lives in Silicon Valley and a bad developer is one who lives anywhere else. If one accepts that there are good and bad developers everywhere, or that some people measure value differently than you do, then it makes absolutely no sense. > If big companies were paying higher salaries to the same developers then how would that create any advantage for them? Have you heard abou this little thing called network effects? The theory is that, by bringing good developers together, synergy creates value that doesn't exist with them separate. It's an idea I could argue from either side, but the important thing is that it doesn't require physical proximity to work. It can be well worth paying a premium to bring good developers into logical or virtual proximity with one another, and the big rich companies are taking advantage of that. > Rich tech companies don't have a monopoly on capital. If all it took is to pay developers a lot of money then it would be Wall St rather than tech companies doing the paying and collecting the yields. It doesn't require a monopoly. All it requires is a significant asymmetry. Also, Wall Street very much has been playing this game too, with effects and remedies that would be just as worthy of debate if we could get past the facile attempts to deny the reality of it happening.
- AnthonyMouse 10y ago
  > Neither of your strawmen. I am not making my own assertion at all. I am challenging your assertion that maintaining a high standard of living requires moving to the Center Of The Universe for all or nearly all developers. You seem to be challenging your own straw man. > You seem to base this assertion on a premise that the difference in salaries outweighs the difference in cost of living, but have provided no evidence to support that. The evidence is all of the developers who choose to live and work in SV despite the high cost of living. > I know it's not true for me, but at least I don't assume that my experience is universal. That is the straw man -- I never claimed it was universal. It's true of the people who live there, or why do they? > True. You have to be pretty good at what you do. That doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Plenty of call center workers are allowed (or required) to work from home, because it saves the company from having to pay for office space for them, but that doesn't make them particularly highly skilled or highly paid. > Again, it's not my argument. It's yours, and it's ridiculous. Here's you from before: > Rich companies can and do pay higher salaries regardless of the worker's location. That creates a feedback loop, distorting both labor and capital markets, turning temporary advantages into permanent ones and stifling competition. If the higher salaries aren't paying for better work then how do the companies get any advantage out of it? > Have you heard abou this little thing called network effects? The theory is that, by bringing good developers together, synergy creates value that doesn't exist with them separate. That isn't what "network effects" means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect "Big" isn't an advantage here. It means bureaucracy and politics and Mythical Man Month problems. These companies succeed despite these things, not because of them. > It can be well worth paying a premium to bring good developers into logical or virtual proximity with one another, and the big rich companies are taking advantage of that. What do you suppose is stopping the same people from coming together on their own and just keeping the money their work generates? > It doesn't require a monopoly. All it requires is a significant asymmetry. Asymmetric capital? How is Apple's billion dollars better than any random capitalist's billion dollars? > Also, Wall Street very much has been playing this game too, with effects and remedies that would be just as worthy of debate if we could get past the facile attempts to deny the reality of it happening. What game? "Money makes money" has been the basis of Wall St since day zero. The method by which this doesn't lead to permanent massive consolidation of power is that new entities come into existence and displace old ones, but are owned by new people. The problem is the thwarting of that process by requiring the permission of incumbents to make new things.