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You're wrong. Every industry has management problems. Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech

You're wrong. Every industry has management problems. Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech is a hostile environment for women, or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech.

jetsnoc 10y ago
IMHO, tech is a hostile environment with a lot of poor managers. I think the Peter principle applies to a lot of managers in tech. Promoted past their skill set. Just because someone is a good engineer does not mean they will be a good engineering manager. Managing humans with needs, concerns, ideals and life goals is so very different than managing a code-base. Executive leadership needs to consider this when building teams and figure out how to make and/or recruit good managers.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  I wouldn't scope this down to tech. Incompetence and professional disinterest is by far the norm across all industries. Career meritocracy is, more or less, a myth. In technical fields, there is a merit baseline that has to be cleared, but after that, any further relationship between merit and position evaporates. That is inescapable. People sometimes think they've escaped it and found the promised land of meritocracy, but they haven't. That usually just means they have a politically-skilled manager who is good at keeping their belief in the fairy tale alive. I agree that a good engineer is not necessarily a good engineering manager, but I don't believe there are good engineering managers who are not also good engineers.
  - jetsnoc 10y ago
    I agree, this ain't just tech's problem.
ruleabidinguser 10y ago
>or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. The more accurate version of this is "women find less value in tech." It deserves more consideration than it gets. There are differences that aren't just cultural between genders, and its something that should be taken into account when forming a judgement on these issues.
- spcelzrd 10y ago
  Or it could be that "tech finds less value in women". Historically, your argument has been used to suppress women and minorities. It's weird that every time a group doesn't fit into an industry or a culture, that group is not white men.
  - xienze 10y ago
    > It's weird that every time a group doesn't fit into an industry or a culture, that group is not white men. Teaching, nursing, child care. Care to take a guess which group doesn't fit into those industries?
    - ruleabidinguser 10y ago
      I wonder how they can genuinely maintain their position in light of this?
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    Note that women now exceed men as college graduates. Meaning for every profession where men dominate, you must have other professions where women dominate more. Otherwise the numbers don't add up.
  - ruleabidinguser 10y ago
    Are you suggesting I have an interest in suppressing women and minorities? The only reason I'd want to do that is to decrease competition, and I can guarentee you that I share the same interest regardless of gender or ethnicity My comment was out of an interest in not being lied to more than anything else.
    - kristineberth 10y ago
      I didn't interpret that comment as a suggestion that you have an interest in suppressing women and minorities. But you might have a subconscious interest in maintaining your own worldview, wherein you're part of a group of people that 'gets' or 'finds value in' tech, and others aren't. The subconscious forces that shape the way people think about these issues are the most pernicious.
xienze 10y ago
> Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech is a hostile environment for women, or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. "Men fail to enter [teaching|nursing|child care] at a rate much higher than other industries. The only conclusion is that [teaching|nursing|child care] is a hostile environment for men, or that men are intrinsically unable to perform in [teaching|nursing|child care]." Which is it, in the areas I listed?
- lliamander 10y ago
  Interestingly, I've heard women working in those fields lament the lack of male representation. In teaching and child care, some kids just respond better to men. In nursing, it's because men are generally going to have an easier time providing care for patients who are overweight.
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    Interestingly, I've heard men working in tech lament the lack of female representation...
  - neivin 10y ago
    I remember reading a study about female teachers grading female students more leniently, while male teachers did not show a bias. Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf
- DanBC 10y ago
  Each of those professions have considerable effort to increase the numbers of men working in them. This is a tedious point, and it gets made every single fucking time there's a thread like this. Use a search engine. You'd find, within a few moments, programmes across all of these industries to correct the gender imbalance.
  - xienze 10y ago
    > Each of those professions have considerable effort to increase the numbers of men working in them. And yet the number never budges, and we don't hear the president and the media blasting said industries over their shameful employment ratios day after day. Instead it's just "hmm yes, that's curious. Well we're working on the problem. Carry on..." Whereas in tech if the ratio isn't 50/50 there's hell to pay. In comparison there isn't a damn thing being done to address the imbalance in the industries I've listed. Yet women in tech, that's a national crisis.
mpweiher 10y ago
> The only conclusion... Yeah...no. That's such a distance that "leaping" to conclusions doesn't quite cover it. How about: women are (statistically) less interested in tech? So there is less intrinsic motivation, so extrinsic factors become much more important. Not entirely coincidentally, that is exactly what surveys starting at high-school age right through professionals leaving the profession show. And "leaving" tech is often "getting promoted to management". UPDATE: Note that even if this explanation were not the correct one (though I think it is the one that's most correct), it would still invalidate your assertion about other explanations being the only conclusions.

jetsnoc 10y ago

IMHO, tech is a hostile environment with a lot of poor managers. I think the Peter principle applies to a lot of managers in tech. Promoted past their skill set. Just because someone is a good engineer does not mean they will be a good engineering manager. Managing humans with needs, concerns, ideals and life goals is so very different than managing a code-base. Executive leadership needs to consider this when building teams and figure out how to make and/or recruit good managers.

cookiecaper 10y ago
I wouldn't scope this down to tech. Incompetence and professional disinterest is by far the norm across all industries. Career meritocracy is, more or less, a myth. In technical fields, there is a merit baseline that has to be cleared, but after that, any further relationship between merit and position evaporates. That is inescapable. People sometimes think they've escaped it and found the promised land of meritocracy, but they haven't. That usually just means they have a politically-skilled manager who is good at keeping their belief in the fairy tale alive. I agree that a good engineer is not necessarily a good engineering manager, but I don't believe there are good engineering managers who are not also good engineers.
- jetsnoc 10y ago
  I agree, this ain't just tech's problem.

ruleabidinguser 10y ago

>or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. The more accurate version of this is "women find less value in tech." It deserves more consideration than it gets. There are differences that aren't just cultural between genders, and its something that should be taken into account when forming a judgement on these issues.

spcelzrd 10y ago
Or it could be that "tech finds less value in women". Historically, your argument has been used to suppress women and minorities. It's weird that every time a group doesn't fit into an industry or a culture, that group is not white men.
- xienze 10y ago
  > It's weird that every time a group doesn't fit into an industry or a culture, that group is not white men. Teaching, nursing, child care. Care to take a guess which group doesn't fit into those industries?
  - ruleabidinguser 10y ago
    I wonder how they can genuinely maintain their position in light of this?
- mpweiher 10y ago
  Note that women now exceed men as college graduates. Meaning for every profession where men dominate, you must have other professions where women dominate more. Otherwise the numbers don't add up.
- ruleabidinguser 10y ago
  Are you suggesting I have an interest in suppressing women and minorities? The only reason I'd want to do that is to decrease competition, and I can guarentee you that I share the same interest regardless of gender or ethnicity My comment was out of an interest in not being lied to more than anything else.
  - kristineberth 10y ago
    I didn't interpret that comment as a suggestion that you have an interest in suppressing women and minorities. But you might have a subconscious interest in maintaining your own worldview, wherein you're part of a group of people that 'gets' or 'finds value in' tech, and others aren't. The subconscious forces that shape the way people think about these issues are the most pernicious.

xienze 10y ago

> Women leave tech at a rate much higher than they leave other industries. The only conclusion is that tech is a hostile environment for women, or that women are intrinsically unable to perform in tech. "Men fail to enter [teaching|nursing|child care] at a rate much higher than other industries. The only conclusion is that [teaching|nursing|child care] is a hostile environment for men, or that men are intrinsically unable to perform in [teaching|nursing|child care]." Which is it, in the areas I listed?

lliamander 10y ago
Interestingly, I've heard women working in those fields lament the lack of male representation. In teaching and child care, some kids just respond better to men. In nursing, it's because men are generally going to have an easier time providing care for patients who are overweight.
- mpweiher 10y ago
  Interestingly, I've heard men working in tech lament the lack of female representation...
- neivin 10y ago
  I remember reading a study about female teachers grading female students more leniently, while male teachers did not show a bias. Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf
DanBC 10y ago
Each of those professions have considerable effort to increase the numbers of men working in them. This is a tedious point, and it gets made every single fucking time there's a thread like this. Use a search engine. You'd find, within a few moments, programmes across all of these industries to correct the gender imbalance.
- xienze 10y ago
  > Each of those professions have considerable effort to increase the numbers of men working in them. And yet the number never budges, and we don't hear the president and the media blasting said industries over their shameful employment ratios day after day. Instead it's just "hmm yes, that's curious. Well we're working on the problem. Carry on..." Whereas in tech if the ratio isn't 50/50 there's hell to pay. In comparison there isn't a damn thing being done to address the imbalance in the industries I've listed. Yet women in tech, that's a national crisis.

mpweiher 10y ago

> The only conclusion... Yeah...no. That's such a distance that "leaping" to conclusions doesn't quite cover it. How about: women are (statistically) less interested in tech? So there is less intrinsic motivation, so extrinsic factors become much more important. Not entirely coincidentally, that is exactly what surveys starting at high-school age right through professionals leaving the profession show. And "leaving" tech is often "getting promoted to management". UPDATE: Note that even if this explanation were not the correct one (though I think it is the one that's most correct), it would still invalidate your assertion about other explanations being the only conclusions.