5 ms·

I think there's a case to be made that, in general, women may be more sensitive to some universal tech industry issues which men tend to shrug off or otherwise

by Zikes 10y ago

I think there's a case to be made that, in general, women may be more sensitive to some universal tech industry issues which men tend to shrug off or otherwise deal with differently.

striking 10y ago
Infantilizing much?
- Zikes 10y ago
  Generalizing, actually. But I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. Taken individually, you'll find folks all over any given spectrum, but if we're going to address "Women in Tech" vs the implicit "Men in Tech" then we can't just say "well the two are exactly the same and therefore there's no discussion to be had." Of course there's differences between men and women. Different values, different priorities, different sensitivities. Maybe there are issues in nursing and education which men are more sensitive towards, and that's why there's such a larger opposing gender disparity in those fields? That doesn't mean that either gender is necessarily "weaker", just "different". If we want to help technical managers retain women, then it would be helpful to determine which issues women are generally more sensitive to, even if they're the same issues men have faced for however long but which have not driven them away from the industry.
  - StargazyPi 10y ago
    Can you pick out any problems in particular pointed out in this article, that are more frequently picked up on by women? Most of the common ones seem to be a company or manager's words not matching their actions. The sample sizes I've experienced may be fairly small so far (very few female colleagues, as ever), but I've seen men and women leave in equal measure for that type of transgression.
    - Zikes 10y ago
      I don't know of any studies, anecdotes aren't data, and I don't know of any particular issues listed in the article that might affect women more than men. The only point I'm trying to make is the obvious one: men and women are different. It's a stupid point, taken at face value, but it's one that seems to get lost every time someone says "but men face those same issues" or "that doesn't seem like a gendered issue to me".
      - StargazyPi 10y ago
        Yeah, I agree that on aggregate, men and women have subtly different tendencies. The reason I bring it up though, is that I don't see or experience any particular bias around most of the the issues in the article. Most of the points raised really don't seem like gendered issues.
        Zikes 10y ago
        We need to find a way to figure out which of those differences are important, then. YC seems to be trying via this Ask a Female Engineer series, but if we ask those female engineers which issues are most important to them in regards to what would drive them away and the answers they give aren't satisfactory, then what conclusions can be drawn? If the issues listed are largely the same issues faced by men, and if the issues have an equivalent impact on male engineer retention, then the answers are incomplete or we're asking the wrong women. Maybe we should ask female former engineers why they left the industry?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- BadassFractal 10y ago
  Old school feminists have been cringing at this trend for a couple of decades at this point. It's unfortunate the newer generations haven't been exposed to where we came from and how we're now regressing back, undoing much of the work they did.
sgustard 10y ago
I think there are valid examples, e.g.: 90% of my coworkers are male. Men: don't notice. Women: might notice.
- scandox 10y ago
  Um hope I'm not being humourless but obviously if the percentage was reversed then the Men would notice and a majority would be somewhat bothered by it. Especially if they perceived a difference in how they were treated as part of that smaller group... Isn't this kind of the point? Am I missing summat?
kfrzcode 10y ago
Do you have any supporting evidence to help build this case? I don't buy it.
- mtreis86 10y ago
  According to Dr. Elaine Aron, http://hsperson.com http://hsperson.com there is a similar percentage sensitivity in both genders, 15-20%.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
zer00eyz 10y ago
Your being down voted because no one wants to hear it, but there is some truth to it. It isn't so much a biological difference (there may be some of that) but one that is likely a byproduct of how we socialize children [1]. Fixing this issue in adults is a hell of a lot harder to fix than it is in kids. It doesn't help that software engineering as a whole, is to varying degrees, broken. From how we interview to how we manage projects [2]. We simply have no idea how to build something effective and repeatable within the constraints of the current system. [1] I could put a million different links here, lets just use this one and you can do your own research after that: http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-girls-boys-brilliant-20170126-story.html http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-girls-bo... [2] Again illustrative example, pick your own poison here as well: https://hbr.org/2008/02/the-experience-trap https://hbr.org/2008/02/the-experience-trap
- Arizhel 10y ago
  Funny how you're being downvoted too. You're probably being downvoted for pointing out the naked truth about software engineering and its utter brokenness.
- kfrzcode 10y ago
  I think this is a more likely scenario -- nurture rather than nature. Nobody's born with bias or opinions.
emodendroket 10y ago
It's probably true that, for the most part, men are less likely to mind, say, crude sexual remarks about women, but I don't think it follows that we should just tell women to suck it up.

by Zikes 10y ago

I think there's a case to be made that, in general, women may be more sensitive to some universal tech industry issues which men tend to shrug off or otherwise deal with differently.

striking 10y ago

Infantilizing much?

Zikes 10y ago
Generalizing, actually. But I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. Taken individually, you'll find folks all over any given spectrum, but if we're going to address "Women in Tech" vs the implicit "Men in Tech" then we can't just say "well the two are exactly the same and therefore there's no discussion to be had." Of course there's differences between men and women. Different values, different priorities, different sensitivities. Maybe there are issues in nursing and education which men are more sensitive towards, and that's why there's such a larger opposing gender disparity in those fields? That doesn't mean that either gender is necessarily "weaker", just "different". If we want to help technical managers retain women, then it would be helpful to determine which issues women are generally more sensitive to, even if they're the same issues men have faced for however long but which have not driven them away from the industry.
- StargazyPi 10y ago
  Can you pick out any problems in particular pointed out in this article, that are more frequently picked up on by women? Most of the common ones seem to be a company or manager's words not matching their actions. The sample sizes I've experienced may be fairly small so far (very few female colleagues, as ever), but I've seen men and women leave in equal measure for that type of transgression.
  - Zikes 10y ago
    I don't know of any studies, anecdotes aren't data, and I don't know of any particular issues listed in the article that might affect women more than men. The only point I'm trying to make is the obvious one: men and women are different. It's a stupid point, taken at face value, but it's one that seems to get lost every time someone says "but men face those same issues" or "that doesn't seem like a gendered issue to me".
    - StargazyPi 10y ago
      Yeah, I agree that on aggregate, men and women have subtly different tendencies. The reason I bring it up though, is that I don't see or experience any particular bias around most of the the issues in the article. Most of the points raised really don't seem like gendered issues.
      - Zikes 10y ago
        We need to find a way to figure out which of those differences are important, then. YC seems to be trying via this Ask a Female Engineer series, but if we ask those female engineers which issues are most important to them in regards to what would drive them away and the answers they give aren't satisfactory, then what conclusions can be drawn? If the issues listed are largely the same issues faced by men, and if the issues have an equivalent impact on male engineer retention, then the answers are incomplete or we're asking the wrong women. Maybe we should ask female former engineers why they left the industry?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
BadassFractal 10y ago
Old school feminists have been cringing at this trend for a couple of decades at this point. It's unfortunate the newer generations haven't been exposed to where we came from and how we're now regressing back, undoing much of the work they did.

sgustard 10y ago

I think there are valid examples, e.g.: 90% of my coworkers are male. Men: don't notice. Women: might notice.

scandox 10y ago
Um hope I'm not being humourless but obviously if the percentage was reversed then the Men would notice and a majority would be somewhat bothered by it. Especially if they perceived a difference in how they were treated as part of that smaller group... Isn't this kind of the point? Am I missing summat?

kfrzcode 10y ago

Do you have any supporting evidence to help build this case? I don't buy it.

mtreis86 10y ago
According to Dr. Elaine Aron, http://hsperson.com http://hsperson.com there is a similar percentage sensitivity in both genders, 15-20%.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

zer00eyz 10y ago

Your being down voted because no one wants to hear it, but there is some truth to it. It isn't so much a biological difference (there may be some of that) but one that is likely a byproduct of how we socialize children [1]. Fixing this issue in adults is a hell of a lot harder to fix than it is in kids. It doesn't help that software engineering as a whole, is to varying degrees, broken. From how we interview to how we manage projects [2]. We simply have no idea how to build something effective and repeatable within the constraints of the current system. [1] I could put a million different links here, lets just use this one and you can do your own research after that: http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-girls-boys-brilliant-20170126-story.html http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-girls-bo... [2] Again illustrative example, pick your own poison here as well: https://hbr.org/2008/02/the-experience-trap https://hbr.org/2008/02/the-experience-trap

Arizhel 10y ago
Funny how you're being downvoted too. You're probably being downvoted for pointing out the naked truth about software engineering and its utter brokenness.
kfrzcode 10y ago
I think this is a more likely scenario -- nurture rather than nature. Nobody's born with bias or opinions.

emodendroket 10y ago

It's probably true that, for the most part, men are less likely to mind, say, crude sexual remarks about women, but I don't think it follows that we should just tell women to suck it up.