7 ms·

At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. This ban makes no sense because

by pieter1976 10y ago

At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. This ban makes no sense because $BAD_GUY can just via some intermediate airport with their iPad Bomb. It's interesting that El Al has not decided to ban laptops (despite undoubtedly being a target) and, in fact, advises people not to put valuables in the hold: https://www.elal.com/en/PassengersInfo/Baggage/Pages/Policy.aspx https://www.elal.com/en/PassengersInfo/Baggage/Pages/Policy.... "EL AL reminds all passengers not to pack valuable items in baggage send to the hold of the plane. These items should be carried in the hand luggage"

junto 10y ago
But El Al is also profiling passengers before they even reach the airport. They stop people on route and question them to gain any subtle clues as to whether people might be nervous or acting strangely. They know weird shit like who you've met after being in Israel. A gay friend of a friend went to Tel Aviv Pride, and was taken aside and asked why he'd chosen to sleep with an Arab as he was leaving the country.
- Fife 10y ago
  What could they possibly say to "he was hot" ?
  - junto 10y ago
    I think the comment was intended to be overtly racist. LGBT folk are pretty welcome in Israel, but you "should be" sleeping with Israelis and not "Arabs".
    - chimeracoder 10y ago
      > LGBT folk are pretty welcome in Israel They are if they're Israeli (and white). People of Palestinian descent living in Israel (as well as Jewish Arabs who are not Palestinian, to a lesser extent) have a very different experience with being gay in Israel.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  The hell? How did they know that?
  - junto 10y ago
    Apparently he had absolutely no idea, but it completely freaked him out.
    - StavrosK 10y ago
      With good reason, I can imagine how paranoid that would make me. I'd definitely try to find how they found this out, starting with checking whether I posted it somewhere public. That would be the least worrisome scenario.
      - dhimes 10y ago
        Fuck, that freaks me out and I'm not gay nor traveling to the Mid East. Shit.
        moftz 10y ago
        Most likely they were watching the Arab guy and were able to determine the name and travel plans of the person that was hanging out with the Arab.
    - phonon 10y ago
      From my experience at Ben Gurion airport...security there has different stages. When you first walk in to the airport, even before you check in and get your ticket, some friendly attractive person will start chatting with you and ask about your trip. They will not identify themselves (or be dressed) as security. Your friend might very well have mentioned something to that person. Later, when the more formal security process/interview starts, they might ask followup questions based on info they got from that earlier "interview".
      - literallycancer 10y ago
- tps5 10y ago
  Chances are that your friend embellished this story. People do that, often. Think about the absurd amount of effort required to know that one of the thousands of people going through that airport that day had sex with a man of Arab descent sometime in the past few days. I've had a few interviews entering and leaving Israel. It was a more pleasant experience than in the US because the security seemed engaged and efficient. I had my carry on emptied and searched in front of me while leaving the country, but the process was fast and professionally done. Security workers also looked me in the eyes and paid attention to what I was saying. I've never had that experience in the US.
  - junto 10y ago
    I could be, but as @pavel_lishin said below, it is quite possible that the "Arab" guy was already of interest to the security services. It would make more sense.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I'm calling B.S on this story. I don't doubt your friend may have told you this but I sincerely doubt the veracity of the story itself. If either person, your friend or the person they had an encounter with were of significant enough interest to be watched by security services that fact wouldn't not have been shared with them.
logicallee 10y ago
EDIT: I am not defending the policy. I would like to address the specific argument you've used to attack it. (I don't agree with the laptop ban, and I want strong arguments being made against it, not weak arguments.) --- >At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. I would like you to please pay attention for a moment (try to follow my train of thought), maybe I can convince you of something. So, I think that what you've just written is a particularly/incredibly weak argument and regardless of your or my position on the issue I really would like to take a minute to try to convince you not to make this argument again. Make a better argument! So, suppose that someone said, "At some point we should just accept that ransoms will happen" and so simply stop supporting the FBI and let bad guys kidnap any family of billionaires whenever they want, and to have these billionaires start paying ransoms. Or you can apply it to anything really. Suppose you said "violent rapes will always happen", so we should just learn to live with it instead of having infrastructure to deal with it. I don't know - make a list of heinous things people can do to each other, employers to employees, everyday people, whatever. Think of things there are laws and policies against - and imagine someone suggesting that instead, people just learn to live with the problem. I think there is a large chance people will misunderstand the point of my comment: the point of my comment is that as an argument, "terrorists are always going to want to..." so "just live with it" is a very weak argument. Instead of this argument, a different argument needs to be made. It simply shouldn't be made on this, or any other subject, I feel. I would like to expand the topic in question to show how problematic the argument is: I think, conservatively, a sum total of $1 trillion (current dollars) will have been spent on researching/curing/innoculuating against/preventing AIDS. Suppose someone suggested that instead of spending $1 trillion on curing it, we simply "learned to deal with it." (Or imagine the same attitude toward cancer research.) I hope at least this example will show why the argument itself ("we should just accept that there will always be AIDS") is particularly weak. It's simply not true! I hope I've convinced you to avoid using this argument again. This does not mean other arguments can't be made - just this particular specific variation. Use a stronger argument against bullshit policies! ---- EDIT: as expected people have misunderstood my point. I will give your argument a name: "argument from helplessness." We can't solve it, so we should just accept that it will open happen. Why would it be a given that explosives can always be brought on planes? I am not defending this particular policy, but the argument from helplessness should not be one of the arguments made against it! It's a bad, weak argument, period. It won't convince anyone. Make a better argument!
aorth 10y ago
I've heard El Al is especially paranoid, but I had a pretty horrible experience flying out of Tel Aviv with Wizz Air in 2017-02 where Israeli security asked me tens of questions on several different points during my navigation through the airport, and then finally my MacBook Pro failed the security check and was confiscated—I was told "you are not allowed to fly with this laptop." They sent it 48 hours later on the next Wizz Air flight. Huge pain in the ass. sigh

junto 10y ago

But El Al is also profiling passengers before they even reach the airport. They stop people on route and question them to gain any subtle clues as to whether people might be nervous or acting strangely. They know weird shit like who you've met after being in Israel. A gay friend of a friend went to Tel Aviv Pride, and was taken aside and asked why he'd chosen to sleep with an Arab as he was leaving the country.

Fife 10y ago
What could they possibly say to "he was hot" ?
- junto 10y ago
  I think the comment was intended to be overtly racist. LGBT folk are pretty welcome in Israel, but you "should be" sleeping with Israelis and not "Arabs".
  - chimeracoder 10y ago
    > LGBT folk are pretty welcome in Israel They are if they're Israeli (and white). People of Palestinian descent living in Israel (as well as Jewish Arabs who are not Palestinian, to a lesser extent) have a very different experience with being gay in Israel.
StavrosK 10y ago
The hell? How did they know that?
- junto 10y ago
  Apparently he had absolutely no idea, but it completely freaked him out.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    With good reason, I can imagine how paranoid that would make me. I'd definitely try to find how they found this out, starting with checking whether I posted it somewhere public. That would be the least worrisome scenario.
    - dhimes 10y ago
      Fuck, that freaks me out and I'm not gay nor traveling to the Mid East. Shit.
      - moftz 10y ago
        Most likely they were watching the Arab guy and were able to determine the name and travel plans of the person that was hanging out with the Arab.
  - phonon 10y ago
    From my experience at Ben Gurion airport...security there has different stages. When you first walk in to the airport, even before you check in and get your ticket, some friendly attractive person will start chatting with you and ask about your trip. They will not identify themselves (or be dressed) as security. Your friend might very well have mentioned something to that person. Later, when the more formal security process/interview starts, they might ask followup questions based on info they got from that earlier "interview".
    - literallycancer 10y ago
tps5 10y ago
Chances are that your friend embellished this story. People do that, often. Think about the absurd amount of effort required to know that one of the thousands of people going through that airport that day had sex with a man of Arab descent sometime in the past few days. I've had a few interviews entering and leaving Israel. It was a more pleasant experience than in the US because the security seemed engaged and efficient. I had my carry on emptied and searched in front of me while leaving the country, but the process was fast and professionally done. Security workers also looked me in the eyes and paid attention to what I was saying. I've never had that experience in the US.
- junto 10y ago
  I could be, but as @pavel_lishin said below, it is quite possible that the "Arab" guy was already of interest to the security services. It would make more sense.
bogomipz 10y ago
I'm calling B.S on this story. I don't doubt your friend may have told you this but I sincerely doubt the veracity of the story itself. If either person, your friend or the person they had an encounter with were of significant enough interest to be watched by security services that fact wouldn't not have been shared with them.

logicallee 10y ago

EDIT: I am not defending the policy. I would like to address the specific argument you've used to attack it. (I don't agree with the laptop ban, and I want strong arguments being made against it, not weak arguments.) --- >At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. I would like you to please pay attention for a moment (try to follow my train of thought), maybe I can convince you of something. So, I think that what you've just written is a particularly/incredibly weak argument and regardless of your or my position on the issue I really would like to take a minute to try to convince you not to make this argument again. Make a better argument! So, suppose that someone said, "At some point we should just accept that ransoms will happen" and so simply stop supporting the FBI and let bad guys kidnap any family of billionaires whenever they want, and to have these billionaires start paying ransoms. Or you can apply it to anything really. Suppose you said "violent rapes will always happen", so we should just learn to live with it instead of having infrastructure to deal with it. I don't know - make a list of heinous things people can do to each other, employers to employees, everyday people, whatever. Think of things there are laws and policies against - and imagine someone suggesting that instead, people just learn to live with the problem. I think there is a large chance people will misunderstand the point of my comment: the point of my comment is that as an argument, "terrorists are always going to want to..." so "just live with it" is a very weak argument. Instead of this argument, a different argument needs to be made. It simply shouldn't be made on this, or any other subject, I feel. I would like to expand the topic in question to show how problematic the argument is: I think, conservatively, a sum total of $1 trillion (current dollars) will have been spent on researching/curing/innoculuating against/preventing AIDS. Suppose someone suggested that instead of spending $1 trillion on curing it, we simply "learned to deal with it." (Or imagine the same attitude toward cancer research.) I hope at least this example will show why the argument itself ("we should just accept that there will always be AIDS") is particularly weak. It's simply not true! I hope I've convinced you to avoid using this argument again. This does not mean other arguments can't be made - just this particular specific variation. Use a stronger argument against bullshit policies! ---- EDIT: as expected people have misunderstood my point. I will give your argument a name: "argument from helplessness." We can't solve it, so we should just accept that it will open happen. Why would it be a given that explosives can always be brought on planes? I am not defending this particular policy, but the argument from helplessness should not be one of the arguments made against it! It's a bad, weak argument, period. It won't convince anyone. Make a better argument!

aorth 10y ago

I've heard El Al is especially paranoid, but I had a pretty horrible experience flying out of Tel Aviv with Wizz Air in 2017-02 where Israeli security asked me tens of questions on several different points during my navigation through the airport, and then finally my MacBook Pro failed the security check and was confiscated—I was told "you are not allowed to fly with this laptop." They sent it 48 hours later on the next Wizz Air flight. Huge pain in the ass. sigh