4 ms·

> That took me completely by surprise. Is there really that much of a market in counterfeit coins? The profit margins just seem so modest relative to counterfei

> That took me completely by surprise. Is there really that much of a market in counterfeit coins? The profit margins just seem so modest relative to counterfeit bills. If no one's checking for counterfeit coins, and the users themselves don't know they exist, it sounds like a pretty awesome opportunity for the counterfeiters. Just take a look at the number of comments here saying the same thing as you - from a counterfeiter's perspective, it sounds pretty ideal.

TillE 10y ago
But, what do you do with your counterfeit coins? You've invested all this money and effort in minting equipment, but it would look extremely weird to spend more than like 20 at once. Unless they can fool machines, it seems very inefficient.
- mootothemax 10y ago
  > But, what do you do with your counterfeit coins? Launder them through your other criminal activities. "Hey, you want to be paid for all the drugs you've sold recently? You can have 500 in 'real' or 1,000 in fake notes + coins."
  - falsedan 10y ago
    I think you'll find most people drug dealers interact with don't take kindly to being passed funny money.
    - palunon 10y ago
      The supplier/street vendor relationship is not the same as the street vendor/drug user one. Also, this is not a case of the supplier trying to con its "client", but one of choice. "Would you prefer real or or more in fake ?"
- lb1lf 10y ago
  My best bet, after mulling this over for a few minutes is that the fake coins are sold in bulk to people who handle lots of small change - kiosks, fast-food joints etc - then they just mix them in with the real money in the register for giving change.
  - clubm8 10y ago
    What I want to know is why would you counterfeit (serious charge) when you can use a similar looking coin? For example I was given a South African 5 Rand coin in my change in Amsterdam (should have been a €2 coin): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5-za-rand.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5-za-rand.JPG Broke a 20 getting intoxicated in a bar/coffeeshop, then bought a kebab after on my walk back. Kebab shop was only place I got metal change that night. I didn't notice until the next day when a coffee place threw a fuss when I used it to pay for my espresso. I suspect they often mix them in for drunk tourists.
    - lb1lf 10y ago
      That idea has been tried out before with great success - in the 1880s.(0) Adjusted only for changes in the CPI, Josh Tatum netted $121 in today's dollars every time he spent a gold-plated nickel. (0) https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Man-Who-Could-Stop-The-Mint https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Man-Who-Could-Stop-The-Mint
- rm445 10y ago
  The UK has a large market in coin-operated gambling machines - there are heavily-regulated low-stakes ones in all kinds of non-casino locations and, I think, higher-stakes ones in legal betting shops. A relative who works in the industry told me he sees large numbers of counterfeit pound coins. I would guess counterfeiters might launder coins through machines. Or even, though I've never seen it, sell discount coins directly to gamblers? In any case machine recognition would be a high priority. The machines in question would be relatively unsophisticated ones with a thickness gauge and a 'ski jump' that effectively checks the weight.
  - londons_explore 10y ago
    Many gambling machines have a 70% return. Ie. 70% of money put in is paid out again. One could probably go to a casino with a bag of fake coins, put 50 in each machine, and take any and all winnings. Some machines even pay out winnings in notes.
    - jdietrich 10y ago
      Britain has relatively liberal gambling laws, so you wouldn't need to go to a casino. High-street betting shops can have up to four fixed-odds betting terminals, which offer electronic versions of standard casino games. European (single zero) roulette has a house edge of just 2.7%. FOBT winnings are paid out via a receipt that is redeemed over the counter, so you can use them to convert coins into notes very easily. Gambling winnings are not subject to tax in the UK, so these machines are an extremely attractive money laundering method. Britain has around 9,000 betting shops, so it's easy to move around and avoid suspicion. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/gambling-machines-drug-money-laundering-bookies https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/gambling-mac...
- DanBC 10y ago
  A lot of them can fool machines, because they're made using a coin that uses the same blank.
- falsedan 10y ago
  You mix in legitimate coins, and deposit them at a bank in Northern Ireland as takings from your (real) businesses. With a rotating cast of 20-ish fronts (each with multiple bank accounts), you could put in £1MM+ a month easy & transfer it onwards as normal-looking purchases. Note that this was a great way to get millions of coins into circulation back in the early 2000s, not so easy now.
  - jclardy 10y ago
    Don't vending machines have the ability to check by weight/size? Couldn't a bank just have that in their counting machine? If you have like 50% fakes it is going to look fishy.
    - falsedan 10y ago
      Most banks don't bother. Also, most counterfeit pound coins are made from redirected planchets (blank coin base) intended to be used as Swazi lilangeni (or just restriked lilangeni), so they are identical in size, weight, and material composition to legitimate pound coins (since they use the same planchet).

TillE 10y ago

But, what do you do with your counterfeit coins? You've invested all this money and effort in minting equipment, but it would look extremely weird to spend more than like 20 at once. Unless they can fool machines, it seems very inefficient.

mootothemax 10y ago
> But, what do you do with your counterfeit coins? Launder them through your other criminal activities. "Hey, you want to be paid for all the drugs you've sold recently? You can have 500 in 'real' or 1,000 in fake notes + coins."
- falsedan 10y ago
  I think you'll find most people drug dealers interact with don't take kindly to being passed funny money.
  - palunon 10y ago
    The supplier/street vendor relationship is not the same as the street vendor/drug user one. Also, this is not a case of the supplier trying to con its "client", but one of choice. "Would you prefer real or or more in fake ?"
lb1lf 10y ago
My best bet, after mulling this over for a few minutes is that the fake coins are sold in bulk to people who handle lots of small change - kiosks, fast-food joints etc - then they just mix them in with the real money in the register for giving change.
- clubm8 10y ago
  What I want to know is why would you counterfeit (serious charge) when you can use a similar looking coin? For example I was given a South African 5 Rand coin in my change in Amsterdam (should have been a €2 coin): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5-za-rand.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5-za-rand.JPG Broke a 20 getting intoxicated in a bar/coffeeshop, then bought a kebab after on my walk back. Kebab shop was only place I got metal change that night. I didn't notice until the next day when a coffee place threw a fuss when I used it to pay for my espresso. I suspect they often mix them in for drunk tourists.
  - lb1lf 10y ago
    That idea has been tried out before with great success - in the 1880s.(0) Adjusted only for changes in the CPI, Josh Tatum netted $121 in today's dollars every time he spent a gold-plated nickel. (0) https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Man-Who-Could-Stop-The-Mint https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Man-Who-Could-Stop-The-Mint
rm445 10y ago
The UK has a large market in coin-operated gambling machines - there are heavily-regulated low-stakes ones in all kinds of non-casino locations and, I think, higher-stakes ones in legal betting shops. A relative who works in the industry told me he sees large numbers of counterfeit pound coins. I would guess counterfeiters might launder coins through machines. Or even, though I've never seen it, sell discount coins directly to gamblers? In any case machine recognition would be a high priority. The machines in question would be relatively unsophisticated ones with a thickness gauge and a 'ski jump' that effectively checks the weight.
- londons_explore 10y ago
  Many gambling machines have a 70% return. Ie. 70% of money put in is paid out again. One could probably go to a casino with a bag of fake coins, put 50 in each machine, and take any and all winnings. Some machines even pay out winnings in notes.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    Britain has relatively liberal gambling laws, so you wouldn't need to go to a casino. High-street betting shops can have up to four fixed-odds betting terminals, which offer electronic versions of standard casino games. European (single zero) roulette has a house edge of just 2.7%. FOBT winnings are paid out via a receipt that is redeemed over the counter, so you can use them to convert coins into notes very easily. Gambling winnings are not subject to tax in the UK, so these machines are an extremely attractive money laundering method. Britain has around 9,000 betting shops, so it's easy to move around and avoid suspicion. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/gambling-machines-drug-money-laundering-bookies https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/gambling-mac...
DanBC 10y ago
A lot of them can fool machines, because they're made using a coin that uses the same blank.
falsedan 10y ago
You mix in legitimate coins, and deposit them at a bank in Northern Ireland as takings from your (real) businesses. With a rotating cast of 20-ish fronts (each with multiple bank accounts), you could put in £1MM+ a month easy & transfer it onwards as normal-looking purchases. Note that this was a great way to get millions of coins into circulation back in the early 2000s, not so easy now.
- jclardy 10y ago
  Don't vending machines have the ability to check by weight/size? Couldn't a bank just have that in their counting machine? If you have like 50% fakes it is going to look fishy.
  - falsedan 10y ago
    Most banks don't bother. Also, most counterfeit pound coins are made from redirected planchets (blank coin base) intended to be used as Swazi lilangeni (or just restriked lilangeni), so they are identical in size, weight, and material composition to legitimate pound coins (since they use the same planchet).