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> Hidden high security feature – a high security feature is built into the coin to protect it from counterfeiting in the future. "security through obscurity" a

by blue1 10y ago

> Hidden high security feature – a high security feature is built into the coin to protect it from counterfeiting in the future. "security through obscurity" as a feature?

kgabis 10y ago
It would be quite amusing if this feature didn't actually exist and it was only an attempt to confuse potential counterfeiters.
- lb1lf 10y ago
  -It would definitely be amusing, but given the current state of affairs - basically, the public is ignorant and vending machines are used to weed out the fakes - I don't think your average counterfeiter would care. After all, your fakes don't need to be perfect; they just need to be good enough to enter the system without you getting caught every time. (Which leads me to wonder - how do counterfeiters insert their fake coins in the monetary system? Where can you spend a lot of coin without arousing suspicion?) -Coins sold at a discount to people who, perfectly aware they are fakes, use them for small purchases? -Perhaps more likely - the customer is your friendly neighbourhood cigarette shop, which then mixes them in the change they give? -Are some vending machines so bad at detecting fakes that you can use those (preferably ones with no security camera watching, which can be a challenge in the UK nowadays) to launder your fakes? -Other? Off to google I go. I really wonder how one can make a viable business model from getting fake coins into circulation. I just looked over the £1 coins in my desk drawer (22!) - I found two dodgies. Perhaps I should bring them to the UK next time and ask in a bank - they may be just worn...
  - dx034 10y ago
    Don't vending machines only check weight, size and if it's magnetic? Should be easier to fake for a vending machine than for customers then.
    - desas 10y ago
      People bother checking their coins at all?
  - gehsty 10y ago
    I think this will be a Crim2Crim business model, selling £100 fakies for £50/£40/£30 real to other crims depending on volume. I'd be interested to find out about who makes the molds / dies and sets up the machines to manufacture these. I like to think its some eccentric retired machinist in a shed in the middle of the Yorkshire countryside :)
  - corobo 10y ago
    > Which leads me to wonder - how do counterfeiters insert their fake coins in the monetary system? Where can you spend a lot of coin without arousing suspicion?) There are plenty of corner shops that'll happily sell you duty free tobacco amongst other non-legal things. I'm sure they'd be happy to take £100 worth of fake coins and mix them into their tills/takings/change if it only costs them £40. The difference can go into their pocket.
rkangel 10y ago
When it was first announced, I read that it was a series of phosphors embedded in the metal. As the coin wore with age, different ones would become detectable at the surface. Obviously I have no idea of the veracity of that, or the accuracy of my memory of the potentially fictitious article.
verbify 10y ago
Security through obscurity isn't a bad thing. The army uses security through obscurity by using camouflage. The only issue with it is when it is only 'security through obscurity'. For example, the National Institute of Standards and Technology recommends: > For external-facing servers, reconfigure service banners not to report the server and OS type and version, if possible http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-123.pdf http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublic...
- vidarh 10y ago
  Indeed, the biggest problem with security through obscurity is not that people use it, but when people overestimate the level of protection it gives them and reduces other protections accordingly.
philh 10y ago
What's even the benefit of anti-counterfeiting measures that people don't know about? It doesn't matter if you fail a test that nobody knows to run. Presumably some people will know about it, but who? If banks are the only places that can detect a fake, for example, does that gain you anything? I suppose you can do something like "ah, this bank is getting a lot of fake coins, which means they're probably getting injected somewhere in the local area, maybe let's interview some people who've been cashing them in and see if there are any businesses they all frequent". Might be valuable. Something I've missed?
- MatthewWilkes 10y ago
  The tests can be introduced incrementally, once forgers get good enough to pass the currently public tests.
- CoryG89 10y ago
  Perhaps that's the point. They have a secret method for checking the authenticity of a coin such that counterfeiters do not know to imitate. This doesn't help the population to distinguish counterfeits, but it may help the government more easily keep track of the ratio of counterfeit coins out there.
  - noja 10y ago
    So why mention it at all?
beejiu 10y ago
> "security through obscurity" My understanding is there is some luminescence profile that is very easy to create from basic chemicals if you know the quantities of those chemicals. But that it is very difficult to establish the precise quantities from the luminescence profile. In effect, a "one-way chemical reaction hash".
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Security through obscurity is just fine as part of a layered approach.
- blue1 10y ago
  I am not criticizing the concept, just that making an announcement of something hidden is somewhat paradoxical.
leoedin 10y ago
To be fair, all security is a form of security through obscurity. An encryption key is just very, very obscure. If this security feature could only be reproduced using a bunch of PhD chemists and millions of dollars of lab equipment, then the security can be considered to be pretty obscure. Even the strongest key based encryption system is vulnerable to brute force attacks if you have enough computer power.

by blue1 10y ago

> Hidden high security feature – a high security feature is built into the coin to protect it from counterfeiting in the future. "security through obscurity" as a feature?

kgabis 10y ago

It would be quite amusing if this feature didn't actually exist and it was only an attempt to confuse potential counterfeiters.

lb1lf 10y ago
-It would definitely be amusing, but given the current state of affairs - basically, the public is ignorant and vending machines are used to weed out the fakes - I don't think your average counterfeiter would care. After all, your fakes don't need to be perfect; they just need to be good enough to enter the system without you getting caught every time. (Which leads me to wonder - how do counterfeiters insert their fake coins in the monetary system? Where can you spend a lot of coin without arousing suspicion?) -Coins sold at a discount to people who, perfectly aware they are fakes, use them for small purchases? -Perhaps more likely - the customer is your friendly neighbourhood cigarette shop, which then mixes them in the change they give? -Are some vending machines so bad at detecting fakes that you can use those (preferably ones with no security camera watching, which can be a challenge in the UK nowadays) to launder your fakes? -Other? Off to google I go. I really wonder how one can make a viable business model from getting fake coins into circulation. I just looked over the £1 coins in my desk drawer (22!) - I found two dodgies. Perhaps I should bring them to the UK next time and ask in a bank - they may be just worn...
- dx034 10y ago
  Don't vending machines only check weight, size and if it's magnetic? Should be easier to fake for a vending machine than for customers then.
  - desas 10y ago
    People bother checking their coins at all?
- gehsty 10y ago
  I think this will be a Crim2Crim business model, selling £100 fakies for £50/£40/£30 real to other crims depending on volume. I'd be interested to find out about who makes the molds / dies and sets up the machines to manufacture these. I like to think its some eccentric retired machinist in a shed in the middle of the Yorkshire countryside :)
- corobo 10y ago
  > Which leads me to wonder - how do counterfeiters insert their fake coins in the monetary system? Where can you spend a lot of coin without arousing suspicion?) There are plenty of corner shops that'll happily sell you duty free tobacco amongst other non-legal things. I'm sure they'd be happy to take £100 worth of fake coins and mix them into their tills/takings/change if it only costs them £40. The difference can go into their pocket.

rkangel 10y ago

When it was first announced, I read that it was a series of phosphors embedded in the metal. As the coin wore with age, different ones would become detectable at the surface. Obviously I have no idea of the veracity of that, or the accuracy of my memory of the potentially fictitious article.

verbify 10y ago

Security through obscurity isn't a bad thing. The army uses security through obscurity by using camouflage. The only issue with it is when it is only 'security through obscurity'. For example, the National Institute of Standards and Technology recommends: > For external-facing servers, reconfigure service banners not to report the server and OS type and version, if possible http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-123.pdf http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublic...

vidarh 10y ago
Indeed, the biggest problem with security through obscurity is not that people use it, but when people overestimate the level of protection it gives them and reduces other protections accordingly.

philh 10y ago

What's even the benefit of anti-counterfeiting measures that people don't know about? It doesn't matter if you fail a test that nobody knows to run. Presumably some people will know about it, but who? If banks are the only places that can detect a fake, for example, does that gain you anything? I suppose you can do something like "ah, this bank is getting a lot of fake coins, which means they're probably getting injected somewhere in the local area, maybe let's interview some people who've been cashing them in and see if there are any businesses they all frequent". Might be valuable. Something I've missed?

MatthewWilkes 10y ago
The tests can be introduced incrementally, once forgers get good enough to pass the currently public tests.
CoryG89 10y ago
Perhaps that's the point. They have a secret method for checking the authenticity of a coin such that counterfeiters do not know to imitate. This doesn't help the population to distinguish counterfeits, but it may help the government more easily keep track of the ratio of counterfeit coins out there.
- noja 10y ago
  So why mention it at all?

beejiu 10y ago

> "security through obscurity" My understanding is there is some luminescence profile that is very easy to create from basic chemicals if you know the quantities of those chemicals. But that it is very difficult to establish the precise quantities from the luminescence profile. In effect, a "one-way chemical reaction hash".

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Security through obscurity is just fine as part of a layered approach.

blue1 10y ago
I am not criticizing the concept, just that making an announcement of something hidden is somewhat paradoxical.

leoedin 10y ago

To be fair, all security is a form of security through obscurity. An encryption key is just very, very obscure. If this security feature could only be reproduced using a bunch of PhD chemists and millions of dollars of lab equipment, then the security can be considered to be pretty obscure. Even the strongest key based encryption system is vulnerable to brute force attacks if you have enough computer power.