5 ms·

I get your point, but bad example. The Senate was never designed around population. In fact it's original purpose was to represent the incumbent state governm

I get your point, but bad example. The Senate was never designed around population. In fact it's original purpose was to represent the incumbent state governments vs the house representing "the people". It wasn't until 1913 that Senators were popularly elected.

CalChris 10y ago
Wyoming has a population of 584,153. California has a population of 38.8 million, 66 times more population. They both have 2 Senators. California also pays more than its share in Federal taxes and gets less in Federal spending. If you look at the Base Closure Commission list, CA lost 28. Mississippi isn't even on the list because they didn't lose any. Your originalist argument means nothing.
- scottLobster 10y ago
  You're judging a system by standards it was never intended to meet and declaring victory. If you're going to argue that small states are over-represented, do it well. Plenty of examples of Gerrymandering as well as the electoral college itself. If you want to debate whether the Senate should exist or not, or whether it serves a purpose or not, or whether how senators are allocated should be changed or not, then fine. But that's a whole other thread. I'd also argue that the Senate serves the important purpose of preventing abuse-of-the-majority, a problem known as far back as Ancient Greek democracy and well-considered by the founders. Getting rid of the Senate or making Senator allocation population-based with no further structural modifications would simply turn us into the United City-states of America. Which is great... if you live in a city and aren't a regional political minority.
  - CalChris 10y ago
    The Senate is of Roman origin and definitely not Greek. The form of government it emulates is republican and not democratic. Et cetera.
    - narrowrail 10y ago
      Given your comments, I believe you should read some of the Federalist Papers. Specifically, #10, #39 and #45. The states were designed to be the democracies, but the federal governments was designed as a republic; this was very deliberate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._45
      - CalChris 10y ago
        Ummm. No. Federalist 10 does not design states to be the democracies. Indeed, it is positively hostile to democracy. From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. Also, states were formerly colonies with assemblies that stretched back 150 years already when the Articles of Confederation were written. And the big C didn't design states; it recognized them since they already existed both in the Colonial era and during the Articles decade.
    - scottLobster 10y ago
      I said the Senate solved a problem present as far back as Ancient Greek democracy, not that it originated there.
ajmurmann 10y ago
That's how it was designed by done slave owners hundreds of years ago. That's an explanation how it came to be but not necessarily a good reason today.
- chrismcb 10y ago
  We are still a nation of states. If our law makers are strictly by population, then population centers like CA would run roadshod over the smaller states. The Senate allows some balance over the majority
  - CalChris 10y ago
    Wow. So instead we get world dominating Wyoming and Alaska and ... running roughshod over CA and NY. Brilliant. This is Red State Moocherism. Mississippi exists only on the enforced generosity of the actually productive States.

CalChris 10y ago

Wyoming has a population of 584,153. California has a population of 38.8 million, 66 times more population. They both have 2 Senators. California also pays more than its share in Federal taxes and gets less in Federal spending. If you look at the Base Closure Commission list, CA lost 28. Mississippi isn't even on the list because they didn't lose any. Your originalist argument means nothing.

scottLobster 10y ago
You're judging a system by standards it was never intended to meet and declaring victory. If you're going to argue that small states are over-represented, do it well. Plenty of examples of Gerrymandering as well as the electoral college itself. If you want to debate whether the Senate should exist or not, or whether it serves a purpose or not, or whether how senators are allocated should be changed or not, then fine. But that's a whole other thread. I'd also argue that the Senate serves the important purpose of preventing abuse-of-the-majority, a problem known as far back as Ancient Greek democracy and well-considered by the founders. Getting rid of the Senate or making Senator allocation population-based with no further structural modifications would simply turn us into the United City-states of America. Which is great... if you live in a city and aren't a regional political minority.
- CalChris 10y ago
  The Senate is of Roman origin and definitely not Greek. The form of government it emulates is republican and not democratic. Et cetera.
  - narrowrail 10y ago
    Given your comments, I believe you should read some of the Federalist Papers. Specifically, #10, #39 and #45. The states were designed to be the democracies, but the federal governments was designed as a republic; this was very deliberate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._45
    - CalChris 10y ago
      Ummm. No. Federalist 10 does not design states to be the democracies. Indeed, it is positively hostile to democracy. From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. Also, states were formerly colonies with assemblies that stretched back 150 years already when the Articles of Confederation were written. And the big C didn't design states; it recognized them since they already existed both in the Colonial era and during the Articles decade.
  - scottLobster 10y ago
    I said the Senate solved a problem present as far back as Ancient Greek democracy, not that it originated there.

ajmurmann 10y ago

That's how it was designed by done slave owners hundreds of years ago. That's an explanation how it came to be but not necessarily a good reason today.

chrismcb 10y ago
We are still a nation of states. If our law makers are strictly by population, then population centers like CA would run roadshod over the smaller states. The Senate allows some balance over the majority
- CalChris 10y ago
  Wow. So instead we get world dominating Wyoming and Alaska and ... running roughshod over CA and NY. Brilliant. This is Red State Moocherism. Mississippi exists only on the enforced generosity of the actually productive States.