6 ms·

Forgive me for the forthcoming rant, this is not a slight at you, but I really dislike the kind of attitude that you are projecting here. Al Gore famously said

by exergy 10y ago

Forgive me for the forthcoming rant, this is not a slight at you, but I really dislike the kind of attitude that you are projecting here. Al Gore famously said in his documentary that a lot of people go from Denial to Despair without pausing at the middle step of Doing Something about it. Biking definitely can solve climate change. Seems to me that people simply do not get it through their heads that climate change starts with what they expect out of life. As long as everyone wants to drive an SUV or a fucking pickup truck because it is "safe", live 25 miles from work, own a new smartphone every two years, have a perfectly manicured front and back yard etc., we are all fucked. For too many people, climate change is a "their" problem: * Wind turbines? Sure, just not in my backyard because it spoils my fucking view. * Nuclear reactors? Hmm, maybe, but definitely not in my state, and preferably not in my country. * Not travelling to exotic locations every holiday, and instead going on local hikes a bit more? No way! * Give up owning a new smartphone every two years? Dead on Arrival. * Wearing a sweater indoors in the winter instead of constant 25 deg C temperature indoors and 20 minute hot showers? Go fuck yourself. No, but look! I installed a Nest thermostat, so the do-gooder halo around my head is glowing bright! * Biking to work? I can't! Live too far from home this and sweaty at work that. Nothing but excuses. And wait! Is this uber-consumeristic lifestyle making me happier? No?! How is that possible? Climate change is NOT a problem that more technology can solve. It is a sociological problem. A problem of what people expect out of life. As long as people keep thinking it's the politicians at fault and they don't owe anyone a damn thing, well, we'll keep on keeping on with business as usual. And you know what business as usual is? We haven't even started decreasing the rate of CO2 increase, what to talk of a zero emission civilization. Sorry this is incoherent and comes across as a jab at you. It's not. It's just me expressing my frustration as an engineer. I hate that the layperson is convinced that it is engineering that will solve climate change, and That Technology to cure us of all ails is just around the corner. It's not. We need to stop fucking raiding this planet.

ThomPete 10y ago
thats ok i can take it but what you dont seem to get is that we are humans not systems and thus wont be making the changes any other way than through technology. you are basically asking humans not to be human which i believe is a common engineering blind spot :) dont hate the players hate the game.
- badosu 10y ago
  Maybe you're underestimating how human culture can change in few years, specially when you consider the rising economical impact of climate change...
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    i dont think i am. humans have mostly changed because technology allowed them to. its those large progresses which gave us new opportunities to change. Edit: why the down vote? care to qualify rather than going trough all my comments you dont like and downvote them whoever you are?
    - badosu 10y ago
      I did not downvote you, but I can point out that your focus on technology as the single most important factor in human behavior change may be oversimplistic.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        Thats a discussion we can have its certainly not domething i am alone of thinking nor does it warrant downvotes.
        macawfish 10y ago
        I know that sometimes I downvote as a way of saying "dude, come on, will you please just look outside yourself for one second!" Or because I'm tired and frustrated about something that means a lot to me, but somebody is approaching it in a polemical or absolute style.
        ThomPete 10y ago
        Perhaps you should take a step back and reread what they actually said.
- 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mnm1 10y ago
I don't know anyone that wants to live 25 miles from work. But almost everyone I know cannot afford to live closer and wants to. I'd love to live in the city. Too bad it's completely unaffordable, even at 3x the median income. This particular solution you have provided is also a solution only the upper class can employ, just like the one in the article. Wind turbines and nuclear reactors: now we're finally getting somewhere. And to build those, you need politicians that are willing to propose and fund them. I'm all for wearing sweaters indoors and only buying phones when the planned obsolescence of modern software makes them unusable (3-5 yrs), but that's an insignificant drop in the bucket. You will never get enough people to adopt such actions without legislation.
- exergy 10y ago
  I disagree that this is an avenue open only to the upper class [1]. Not everyone can do everything, sure (if you're working two jobs, for example, the climate can rightly go fuck itself) but a lot of people can do a lot more. I also disagree that they are insignificant drops in the bucket. The point I'm trying to make is that "culture" is infuriatingly hand-wavy and difficult to quantify, but it matters. As an example, I live in Geneva. Here, all shops close at 7 PM. This means that there less commercial activity past those hours, fewer people mindlessly roaming around in malls etc. Now, surely there are regulations guiding this too, but any government official wanting to undo this because "muh freedom", will be laughed out of the room because there is a culture here that treats this as deeply important. [1]: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/04/06/frugal_living_in_manhattan/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/04/06/frugal_living_in_m...
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    none of that have any effect on climate change what so ever. you need to effect the industry to have any impact and thats not going to happen enough to have any effect.
    - macawfish 10y ago
      I downvoted this comment. Why? Not because I think you're a bad person or something. Contrary, I think it's fucking awesome that we are on here having this conversation, and I think it's very important. Props on that. That wasn't why I downvoted it. The downvote was a way for me to say "I don't have energy right now to go back and forth like this, maybe if I press this button this person will take a step back and think about their attitude as a whole." Okay, now I've eaten dinner and had some coffee. So what was my gripe with your comment? 1) It makes a strong, absolute claim with no evidence. Have you studied nonlinear systems? Even informally? We're dealing with hugely non-linear systems. Little things can compound into tumultuous waves. Look at the way viral memes spread. Culture changes in tumultuous waves. One generation might be hopelessly lost, while the next one comes in with unbelievable clarity, saying "that's just obvious." 2) It's implicitly discouraging of other peoples' perspectives and wisdoms. Imagine some great singer had let their irritable aunt or uncle's mean comments get to them when they were little and couldn't quite keep a pitch. We are learning, and there are without a doubt many, many ways to approach and tackle this. If anything, tackling something so ominously looming is going to take some serious imagination, vision and hope. You might not be hateful, but one doesn't need to be hateful or malicious to be discouraging or to play the part of hater. 3) Culture has, can, does, and will affect industry. Maybe not overnight, but they are inevitably interdependent. We have the power to engage with norms and at the very least set examples. We have the power to abstain, to moderate, to make demands, to dream, to actualize, on short and long term scales. In another comment, you pointed out that people are not systems, they are human beings. To me, that's actually a strength. It makes this struggle messier, but to me it's also an asset. It means that we have the ability to undergo rebirth in imagination and culture, which in the long haul makes us resilient and adaptable.

by exergy 10y ago

ThomPete 10y ago

thats ok i can take it but what you dont seem to get is that we are humans not systems and thus wont be making the changes any other way than through technology. you are basically asking humans not to be human which i believe is a common engineering blind spot :) dont hate the players hate the game.

badosu 10y ago
Maybe you're underestimating how human culture can change in few years, specially when you consider the rising economical impact of climate change...
- ThomPete 10y ago
  i dont think i am. humans have mostly changed because technology allowed them to. its those large progresses which gave us new opportunities to change. Edit: why the down vote? care to qualify rather than going trough all my comments you dont like and downvote them whoever you are?
  - badosu 10y ago
    I did not downvote you, but I can point out that your focus on technology as the single most important factor in human behavior change may be oversimplistic.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      Thats a discussion we can have its certainly not domething i am alone of thinking nor does it warrant downvotes.
      - macawfish 10y ago
        I know that sometimes I downvote as a way of saying "dude, come on, will you please just look outside yourself for one second!" Or because I'm tired and frustrated about something that means a lot to me, but somebody is approaching it in a polemical or absolute style.
        ThomPete 10y ago
        Perhaps you should take a step back and reread what they actually said.
10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mnm1 10y ago

I don't know anyone that wants to live 25 miles from work. But almost everyone I know cannot afford to live closer and wants to. I'd love to live in the city. Too bad it's completely unaffordable, even at 3x the median income. This particular solution you have provided is also a solution only the upper class can employ, just like the one in the article. Wind turbines and nuclear reactors: now we're finally getting somewhere. And to build those, you need politicians that are willing to propose and fund them. I'm all for wearing sweaters indoors and only buying phones when the planned obsolescence of modern software makes them unusable (3-5 yrs), but that's an insignificant drop in the bucket. You will never get enough people to adopt such actions without legislation.

exergy 10y ago
I disagree that this is an avenue open only to the upper class [1]. Not everyone can do everything, sure (if you're working two jobs, for example, the climate can rightly go fuck itself) but a lot of people can do a lot more. I also disagree that they are insignificant drops in the bucket. The point I'm trying to make is that "culture" is infuriatingly hand-wavy and difficult to quantify, but it matters. As an example, I live in Geneva. Here, all shops close at 7 PM. This means that there less commercial activity past those hours, fewer people mindlessly roaming around in malls etc. Now, surely there are regulations guiding this too, but any government official wanting to undo this because "muh freedom", will be laughed out of the room because there is a culture here that treats this as deeply important. [1]: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/04/06/frugal_living_in_manhattan/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/04/06/frugal_living_in_m...
- ThomPete 10y ago
  none of that have any effect on climate change what so ever. you need to effect the industry to have any impact and thats not going to happen enough to have any effect.
  - macawfish 10y ago
    I downvoted this comment. Why? Not because I think you're a bad person or something. Contrary, I think it's fucking awesome that we are on here having this conversation, and I think it's very important. Props on that. That wasn't why I downvoted it. The downvote was a way for me to say "I don't have energy right now to go back and forth like this, maybe if I press this button this person will take a step back and think about their attitude as a whole." Okay, now I've eaten dinner and had some coffee. So what was my gripe with your comment? 1) It makes a strong, absolute claim with no evidence. Have you studied nonlinear systems? Even informally? We're dealing with hugely non-linear systems. Little things can compound into tumultuous waves. Look at the way viral memes spread. Culture changes in tumultuous waves. One generation might be hopelessly lost, while the next one comes in with unbelievable clarity, saying "that's just obvious." 2) It's implicitly discouraging of other peoples' perspectives and wisdoms. Imagine some great singer had let their irritable aunt or uncle's mean comments get to them when they were little and couldn't quite keep a pitch. We are learning, and there are without a doubt many, many ways to approach and tackle this. If anything, tackling something so ominously looming is going to take some serious imagination, vision and hope. You might not be hateful, but one doesn't need to be hateful or malicious to be discouraging or to play the part of hater. 3) Culture has, can, does, and will affect industry. Maybe not overnight, but they are inevitably interdependent. We have the power to engage with norms and at the very least set examples. We have the power to abstain, to moderate, to make demands, to dream, to actualize, on short and long term scales. In another comment, you pointed out that people are not systems, they are human beings. To me, that's actually a strength. It makes this struggle messier, but to me it's also an asset. It means that we have the ability to undergo rebirth in imagination and culture, which in the long haul makes us resilient and adaptable.